How a Vietnam Veteran Built America's Most Sacred Police Memorial

Dennis Collins: 00:00:11

A warm welcome back to Heroes Behind the Badge where we

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tell real stories about real cops.

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Dennis Collins: 00:00:25

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Dennis Collins: 00:00:26

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Okay, today, as always, we have a very special guest and, uh in order

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to introduce him properly, let me introduce my colleagues As always,

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Bill Erfurth and Craig Floyd.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:13

Good morning gentlemen.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:16

Morning.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:16

Morning, sir. Mr. Er was formerly lieutenant er for 26 years with

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the Miami Police Department.

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A highly decorated, exciting, thrilling career.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:29

Yeah.

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And he is now a founding director of Citizens Behind the Badge.

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And of course, of course, Craig Floyd.

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You probably know Craig from the Law Enforcement Officer's Memorial.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:41

He is the.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:41

Founding director, CEO, emeritus of the Law Enforcement Memorial and the museum,

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and he is the founder and our fearless leader of citizens behind the badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:52

He's our CEO and President, and he's here today to join me with our guest.

Dennis Collins: 00:01:57

Good morning, Craig.

Craig Floyd: 00:01:59

Morning Dennis.

Craig Floyd: 00:01:59

Good to be with you sir. As always.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:01

Always good to be with both of you.

Dennis Collins: 00:02:03

Uh, we always like to remind people and Billy Erfurth does this, well remind

Dennis Collins: 00:02:08

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Okay, so let's get to today's guest.

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Little did he know when he volunteered for the drafts in late 1960s, right

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in the middle of the Vietnam War, that his name would become famous forever.

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Today's guest, Jan Scruggs.

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He served in Vietnam as an army infantryman, spent most of his time firing

Dennis Collins: 00:03:17

81 millimeter rounds at enemy targets.

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But in May, 1969, he was in his first battle.

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He was being evacuated by an armored unit.

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He had a premonition that that day he was gonna get hit.

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Well, unfortunately, the worst happened.

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He was severely injured.

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He thought he was near death.

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As he was bleeding out, he said the Lord's Prayer, and he made a promise.

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Look, God, if you can get me out of this mess here, I'll do something to pay you.

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Back in 1979, Scruggs announced to the world that a national

Dennis Collins: 00:03:59

memorial to the Vietnamese War veterans heroes would be built.

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And two and a half years later.

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In 1982, it became a reality.

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Scruggs stood at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington DC and opened

Dennis Collins: 00:04:16

it to a crowd of over 50,000 people.

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A promise made, a promise, kept.

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Some, wanted a war memorial.

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Scruggs wanted to focus on the men and women, the people who had served and died.

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And now the world can see the 58,279 names engraved forever on the wall forevermore.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:39

Jan Scruggs, welcome to Heroes Behind the Badge Podcast.

Dennis Collins: 00:04:44

Thank you for your service, but most important of all,

Dennis Collins: 00:04:47

thank you for your vision.

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The one thing I would like to ask you to kind of start as the story is told on

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that fateful day when you were injured, when you were wounded, you had deployed

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your poncho as a protective device that probably saved you from instant death.

Dennis Collins: 00:05:06

Is that story true?

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:08

Yeah.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:09

They were firing a rocket pro propelled grenades at us.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:14

It's a little bomb about like that shoots through a bazooka and uh.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:20

They fired three of them on all, all sides of me, but especially on my buttocks.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:26

So yes, the, the shrapnel was so weak once, you know, once

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:33

everything started working that I was able to, uh, have a good day.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:38

Uh, I got rescued by some, uh, Vietnam veteran guys and, uh,

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:45

this a crazy thing happened to me.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:48

So, uh, anyway, we all interesting.

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:53

I think people, law enforcement and uh, military veterans have a

Jan Scruggs: 00:05:57

lot of things in common, no doubt.

Jan Scruggs: 00:06:00

Yeah.

Jan Scruggs: 00:06:00

A lot of dangerous situations I have to deal with that can come outta nowhere.

Jan Scruggs: 00:06:05

And, uh, so you least expect it.

Jan Scruggs: 00:06:08

Yes, you least expect it.

Jan Scruggs: 00:06:10

There's some guy with a 12 gauge.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:13

But, but you were ready.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:14

Thankfully you were ready.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:15

And the story that we're gonna hear today, uh, is amazing.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:20

It probably would've never happened if you weren't here.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:24

So let's, uh, I know you and Craig Floyd have a long history together.

Dennis Collins: 00:06:28

Let's, let's start off with Craig and, and kind of go over this amazing story.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:35

Jan, uh, it's been a long time since we've been together, and

Craig Floyd: 00:06:38

it's a privilege because it brings back such great memories of how Jan Scruggs,

Craig Floyd: 00:06:44

the man who built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, dedicated in 1982, became such a

Craig Floyd: 00:06:50

helpful, supportive voice for the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:55

And Jan, I, I think really to get started, I, I called you.

Craig Floyd: 00:06:59

Out out of the blue when we were struggling to build the National

Craig Floyd: 00:07:03

Law Enforcement Officer's Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:05

And I have to believe because of your success in 1982 that you probably

Craig Floyd: 00:07:10

got a lot of calls, like, uh, the one you got from me asking for help.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:14

How did you do it?

Craig Floyd: 00:07:15

And I think, you know, does, let's start with.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:18

What were the secrets to your success?

Craig Floyd: 00:07:20

Nobody had built a national memorial in Washington, DC for many, many years.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:24

I don't know the, the last one before yours, but it was probably,

Craig Floyd: 00:07:29

you know, the Lincoln Memorial, the, uh, you know, Jefferson Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:33

There were some big ones, but none really, uh, happened until 1982 all of a sudden,

Craig Floyd: 00:07:39

Jan Scruggs, uh, is the man who built it.

Craig Floyd: 00:07:42

What were the secrets to your success?

Craig Floyd: 00:07:44

How in the world did you, uh, counter all, you know, all those obstacles,

Craig Floyd: 00:07:50

uh, that were in your way and, and what were the secrets to, uh, the

Craig Floyd: 00:07:52

Vietnam Veterans Memorial success?

Jan Scruggs: 00:07:56

The, the success of almost anything revolves around the team that

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:02

you put together to guide the project through the, the hurdles of Washington

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:08

National Capital Planning Commission.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:10

All these different commissions look at you and, uh, and look at your project

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:15

and decide whether to approve it or not.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:17

So, uh, we got some pretty good people involved.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:21

The architect.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:25

A.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:28

The memorial itself is absolutely fantastic.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:31

'cause it has two big lions, the African lions guarding each side and

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:37

showing that, uh, the general public and the police were on the same team.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:43

So,

Craig Floyd: 00:08:43

and that Ray Kaskey was our sculptor of those Lions, Kaskey.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:46

Kaskey, that's the name, yeah.

Jan Scruggs: 00:08:47

Yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:48

Ray Kaskey and Davis Buckley was the architect, uh, that you

Craig Floyd: 00:08:51

introduced us to, to build the National law enforcement officers memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:57

Yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:57

Yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:08:58

So let me, let me stop.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:00

Lemme stop you there because this was an interesting part I wanted to get into.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:03

Um, Maya Lin was the architect who designed the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:09

Correct.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:09

And it was, you selected Maya Lin and her design through a design

Craig Floyd: 00:09:14

competition that was open to dozens of architects all over the world.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:20

Her, uh, design was selected when you advised me as to how we should select

Craig Floyd: 00:09:26

an architect, how we should get a design for our memorial, which we didn't have

Craig Floyd: 00:09:30

one at the time when I met you, um, you said you didn't want us to do a design

Craig Floyd: 00:09:34

competition, that we should commission a single architect and basically work

Craig Floyd: 00:09:39

with him and tell him what we wanted.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:41

Uh, and then that was a better way to go.

Craig Floyd: 00:09:44

Why, why did you tell us that when you had such great success with

Craig Floyd: 00:09:46

your design competition for vie?

Jan Scruggs: 00:09:51

It just looked like this was gonna be a little more

Jan Scruggs: 00:09:54

difficult than the Vietnam thing.

Jan Scruggs: 00:09:57

You know, policemen in everybody's mind, you know, and when you wake up at night

Jan Scruggs: 00:10:03

and you know, worry what's going on here?

Jan Scruggs: 00:10:06

So.

Jan Scruggs: 00:10:07

Instead of go going the way we did with the Vietnam wall, we decided to go with

Jan Scruggs: 00:10:13

the idea of a different kind of wall, but very effective one that draws people in.

Jan Scruggs: 00:10:21

Not only veterans veteran police officers, but uh, really talented

Jan Scruggs: 00:10:27

people who keep us all safe for try two.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:31

Made sense.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:32

And I, I think you also mentioned, uh, the expense involved and the time

Craig Floyd: 00:10:36

involved in getting a design, uh, selected and ultimately approved.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:42

And I, I think everybody needs to understand that when you build a national

Craig Floyd: 00:10:45

memorial in Washington, DC as you alluded to, there are a number of hoops you

Craig Floyd: 00:10:49

have to jump through, especially with.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:51

Design and site approval.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:53

You have to go through the Commission of Fine Arts.

Craig Floyd: 00:10:55

You have to go through the National Capital Planning Commission,

Craig Floyd: 00:10:58

the Secretary of Interior, and the National Park Service.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:02

I mean, it's one after the other and it can be a very lengthy process.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:06

We only had five years.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:08

When I called you in 1986, December, I said, Jan.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:13

Look, you're, you're the man who did it.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:15

Uh, we're struggling.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:16

All right.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:17

We, we were two years into the national law enforcement officer's

Craig Floyd: 00:11:20

memorial authorization process.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:23

Congress gave us five years to select a site to raise all the money, to get

Craig Floyd: 00:11:28

a design approved and to ultimately start construction on our memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:32

We were struggling and the clock was ticking, and then I called you and we

Craig Floyd: 00:11:37

had lunch and, and the rest is history.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:39

You set us on the right path.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:41

But, uh, but as you pointed out with your experience at Vietnam, you were

Craig Floyd: 00:11:45

able to navigate a lot of those hurdles for us, and you became our first

Craig Floyd: 00:11:49

full-time employee at the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:53

Uh, I don't think many people realized that, but it was Jan Scruggs who

Craig Floyd: 00:11:57

really set us on the right path.

Craig Floyd: 00:11:58

And, uh, yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:00

Tell me about your struggles.

Craig Floyd: 00:12:01

I mean, how long did it take from beginning to end to build

Craig Floyd: 00:12:04

the Vietnam Veterans Memorial?

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:08

Basically, uh, from beginning and end, it took three

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:11

years, which was outrageous.

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:14

I mean, we, they could have done a lot of things to stand in our way, but a

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:19

lot of people with these commissions recognize that this made sense.

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:24

This is something that affects a lot of people.

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:26

The idea of our personal freedoms and being.

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:31

Doing what we have anyway, I had the largest architectural design competition

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:36

held in the history of we Western civilization was for the Vietnam

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:40

Veterans Memorial by Maya Ying, win a, uh, Chinese American, a patriotic,

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:48

you know, she grew up in a little town in uh, Ohio, and they were the

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:52

only Chinese family in the, in Ohio.

Jan Scruggs: 00:12:58

So.

Jan Scruggs: 00:13:00

We with the right people, with a plan in place.

Jan Scruggs: 00:13:02

And, you know, I was, I was off to, I just decided I was gonna be the world's

Jan Scruggs: 00:13:05

most successful 42-year-old lawyer.

Jan Scruggs: 00:13:08

And I said, uh, so I went to law school, which was a total bust, but

Jan Scruggs: 00:13:13

uh, I came back to where I started and Li Life's been very good to me.

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:18

So, so Craig, let me jump in and let's, yeah, go ahead talk a little

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:21

little bit about, about the backstory.

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:23

So, as you were saying, you had five years that you were able to get this project

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:29

off the ground to establish a national law enforcement officer's memorial.

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:33

The backstory is that you were working on Capitol Hill, you were an aide,

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:38

uh, Mario Biaggi was a congressman, and, and you were, you were basically

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:42

tapped to go and and do this.

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:44

So you had five years, as you had mentioned, you, you were two years

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:48

into this, you were struggling and hadn't really come together

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:52

and you reached out to Jan, but I don't know the connection there.

Bill Erfurth: 00:13:58

So how was it that you and Jan at that point came together and

Bill Erfurth: 00:14:02

how did that change everything after those first two years?

Craig Floyd: 00:14:06

So it, it was a, one of our board members, alright,

Craig Floyd: 00:14:09

his name is Ray Pazuello.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:11

Uh, he was with the turn order police in Rhode Island and he

Craig Floyd: 00:14:15

was on our board of directors.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:16

And uh, we looked at each other one day, all of us sitting around the

Craig Floyd: 00:14:20

table saying, you know, what can we do to get this, uh, thing going?

Craig Floyd: 00:14:23

'cause we weren't getting any traction after two years, I think

Craig Floyd: 00:14:26

we had raised $44,000 and we knew it was gonna cost multiple

Craig Floyd: 00:14:29

millions of dollars to get it done.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:32

We didn't have a site, we didn't have a design.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:34

And uh, Ray said, you know what, Jan Scruggs built the

Craig Floyd: 00:14:38

Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:40

Uh, why don't you give Jan a call and see if he might be willing to share some

Craig Floyd: 00:14:44

of his advice, his secrets of success.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:47

So I picked up the phone.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:48

I I managed to find your phone number, Jan. I don't remember how I did that.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:52

Uh, called Jan up, said, Hey, would you mind having lunch with me?

Craig Floyd: 00:14:56

We went up to Capitol Hill one day, had lunch.

Craig Floyd: 00:14:58

He was very willing to meet and, uh, was very, uh, generous with

Craig Floyd: 00:15:03

his advice over lunch that day.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:05

And Jan, I, this is an interesting point.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:07

Uh, I think the main message, uh, that I remember from that lunch is.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:12

Craig, you'll never be successful building this memorial of yours for police.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:17

Unless you treat it like a full-time job, you're not gonna be able

Craig Floyd: 00:15:21

to do it on a volunteer basis.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:23

And as Bill uh alluded to, I was working at the time for Congressman Mario Biaggi.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:29

Uh, I was doing a lot of other things besides building the National Law

Craig Floyd: 00:15:32

enforcement officer's memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:34

And, and Jan said, you know, you gotta have an office, you gotta have,

Craig Floyd: 00:15:38

uh, people working on this 24 7.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:41

And uh, Jan became our first full-time employee of the National Law

Craig Floyd: 00:15:46

Enforcement Officer's Memorial Fund.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:48

He said he had about eight months before he was gonna go to law school.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:53

And he'd love to come and help us out.

Craig Floyd: 00:15:54

And Jan, I I don't realize, uh, uh, to this day exactly why you chose us.

Craig Floyd: 00:16:00

Uh, like I said earlier, I'm sure you got a lot of opportunities to

Craig Floyd: 00:16:03

help other memorials, or at least people that dreamed of building

Craig Floyd: 00:16:06

a memorial came to you for help.

Craig Floyd: 00:16:09

And, uh, yet you chose us and, and you gave us eight months of your time and,

Craig Floyd: 00:16:13

uh, really, uh, got this thing rolling.

Craig Floyd: 00:16:15

Um, we never would've done it without you.

Craig Floyd: 00:16:17

Did, do you remember that lunch?

Craig Floyd: 00:16:19

Do you remember those early days?

Craig Floyd: 00:16:20

It was a long time ago.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:22

I remember the, the passion that I felt listening to, to you talk

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:27

about it, is that if anybody was the right person for the job, this was for you.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:32

And, uh, so you and I together put.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:37

What we needed.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:37

We didn't have much, but we had a little bit.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:41

And, uh, we started, uh, the, the process and, and found that very few people

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:47

really wanted to stand in our way.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:50

We had more friends than enemies.

Jan Scruggs: 00:16:51

And, uh, off we went.

Craig Floyd: 00:16:54

And I think one of the things you, you told me also is, um, you

Craig Floyd: 00:16:59

know, we needed to get a site selected.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:03

Um, and you eventually introduced me to a guy named Davis Buckley,

Craig Floyd: 00:17:07

who, uh, has worked hand in glove with me for, I don't know.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:10

Oh yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:10

He worked with me for over 30 years building the National Law Enforcement

Craig Floyd: 00:17:14

Officers Memorial, but also the National Law Enforcement Museum.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:18

And you said Davis might be the right guy for the job.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:20

And then the three of us, you, Jan, Davis, Buckley, myself, representing the

Craig Floyd: 00:17:25

board of directors for the Memorial Fund.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:28

Um, we went after something rather bold.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:31

The Park service at that point in time had visions of any new memorials to

Craig Floyd: 00:17:35

anyone should be on Memorial Drive leading up to Arlington National Cemetery.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:41

Right?

Craig Floyd: 00:17:42

And they were gonna give us a little hedge row where we could build a a statue.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:46

Um, but we wanted something much grander, and you're the one.

Craig Floyd: 00:17:50

I think that as much as anybody said, why don't we think of something bold,

Craig Floyd: 00:17:54

get their attention, even if we're not successful, um, we'll get, we'll let

Craig Floyd: 00:17:59

'em realize we want something bigger than just a hedgerow on Memorial Drive.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:04

Together, we came up with an idea to build the national law enforcement

Craig Floyd: 00:18:07

officer's memorial on the ellipse, which is that grand piece of property with the

Craig Floyd: 00:18:12

national Christmas tree sitting there.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:14

Yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:14

Between the White House and the Washington Monument.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:17

And that did get their attention.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:19

Did it not Jan.

Jan Scruggs: 00:18:21

It did It indeed.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:24

And, and I think you've made, kind of set the model for

Craig Floyd: 00:18:27

that because you did the same thing for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:30

You said, we're not gonna have a hedgerow on Memorial Drive.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:33

We want something grand.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:35

Yes.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:35

Uh, and you got the site right next to the Lincoln Memorial, which uh, I'm

Craig Floyd: 00:18:39

sure a lot of other people would've loved to have that same site, and

Craig Floyd: 00:18:42

somehow you were able to get it done.

Craig Floyd: 00:18:44

That had to be a quite a challenge.

Jan Scruggs: 00:18:47

Yeah.

Jan Scruggs: 00:18:48

And you're.

Jan Scruggs: 00:18:49

These seminal events in American history, the Vietnam War, and the

Jan Scruggs: 00:18:55

Civil War, and you're making a, a memorial that's relevant today, not

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:01

just yesterday, but today because people's lives are affected by it.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:07

But yes, uh, you know.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:11

We did it.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:11

I can't believe we pulled,

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:15

can't believe we pulled this thing off.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:17

But, uh, with, because we didn't have a lot of time, we didn't, you

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:21

know, you look at your calendar every day and say, are we gonna do

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:24

this in another three years or not?

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:27

Go down to history as a bunch of CLOs and, uh.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:31

We, we did a, a great job, especially Craig Floyd is a very interesting

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:39

people we dealt with in the law enforcement community, and he has a

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:43

very good ability to talk to people.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:45

You know, he doesn't talk down to them.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:48

He engages in very well individually.

Jan Scruggs: 00:19:51

So that's a, that's a good trait to have generally,

Craig Floyd: 00:19:55

I think you had it in spades.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:57

Yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:57

Names.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:58

Talk to me about the names.

Craig Floyd: 00:19:59

All right.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:00

Until you built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, all the other monuments

Craig Floyd: 00:20:04

and memorials in Washington didn't really have names on them.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:08

Names of the fallen heroes from that war, or in our case, from the, the, the

Craig Floyd: 00:20:13

war on crime, the, the law enforcement officers of this country who have

Craig Floyd: 00:20:17

given their lives in the line of duty.

Craig Floyd: 00:20:19

Um, how were you able to get, I don't know, 56,000 plus names?

Craig Floyd: 00:20:25

Um, how did you compile that list, number one, and how were you able to

Craig Floyd: 00:20:29

get them, uh, inscribed on a memorial wall and get that design approved?

Jan Scruggs: 00:20:35

Yeah, we had, uh, some pretty big challenges facing us, but

Jan Scruggs: 00:20:41

basically we could get, we felt we could get the the names we wanted for

Jan Scruggs: 00:20:47

the law enforcement memorial using the same tactics that we did, uh, earlier.

Jan Scruggs: 00:20:55

This was really important for the project in law enforcement.

Jan Scruggs: 00:20:58

Community Done in a very nice way.

Jan Scruggs: 00:21:02

Uh, you don't hear big problems with this thing or people gathering

Jan Scruggs: 00:21:07

and, uh, it, it's just, just done.

Jan Scruggs: 00:21:09

Its, its job very well.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:13

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:13

So Jan, you're the man and, uh, you got this done.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:17

I, I don't think there's anyone that doesn't know about the

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:20

Vietnam Veterans Memorial.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:22

There's some people that we still have to reach out to and

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:25

we gotta let them know about the National Law Enforcement Memorial.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:28

It's just not as, as prominent per se, but here we are, we're talking

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:32

about this and, and you're going back with Craig back to the eighties

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:35

and here we are today in 2025.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:39

Still, you have these massive events.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:44

You have, and I, and I might might not be saying this, right, I'm trying to go off

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:47

the top of my head, but you have these angel flights or, or what, what Yes.

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:52

Called specifically where these elderly Vietnam veterans are being escorted

Bill Erfurth: 00:21:57

and brought back every year to the, to the memorial in DC and then every year,

Bill Erfurth: 00:22:02

and it's coming up right now in May.

Bill Erfurth: 00:22:06

Uh, you've got 30 or 40,000 law enforcement, uh, officers from

Bill Erfurth: 00:22:11

around the country and others that show up for National Police Week.

Bill Erfurth: 00:22:15

The legacy of both of these things now that you've been involved in, uh, just

Bill Erfurth: 00:22:21

continue to thrive and continue to live.

Bill Erfurth: 00:22:24

Talk about maybe one of your most rewarding, memorable experiences.

Jan Scruggs: 00:22:32

Well, just, you know, we had major.

Jan Scruggs: 00:22:36

National controversy surrounding the design of this memorial.

Jan Scruggs: 00:22:40

These were very organized, uh, targeted people and, uh, they were

Jan Scruggs: 00:22:46

trying to grab our construction permit from us and so forth.

Jan Scruggs: 00:22:51

So I think probably the most interesting thing that.

Jan Scruggs: 00:22:56

Came our way was that, uh, we built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial at the

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:00

time of Ronald Reagan, and he was the president of the United States.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:04

You know, we all had a chance to meet a very nice fellow and uh, we

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:10

were able to persuade him that, you know, give us a construction permit.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:17

Permit, needs a construction permit.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:19

If you give us a construction permit, we will have this built in several months.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:25

And, uh, so we, we left and we hired a another, well, we didn't really hire

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:32

him, a guy who was volunteering his time.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:35

He was a White House fellow at the time, west Point graduate with a, with an MBA.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:40

I mean, these guys are really very talented.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:44

So, uh, the opponents to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial knew where to get

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:51

us with the Secretary of the interior.

Jan Scruggs: 00:23:56

And they said, uh, yeah, they went to the secretary of the interior's office.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:02

He was traveling at time and told them that we needed this construction

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:06

permit and we needed it now.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:09

And they said, uh, they went and met with him separately and

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:13

they said, but we forgot to tell you the most important thing.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:18

We have the ear and the complete support of Ronald Reagan, the

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:22

President of the United States.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:24

He wants this done and he wants it done now.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:27

Now, of course, we were kind of bullshitting him a little

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:31

bit, but he fell for it.

Bill Erfurth: 00:24:34

Now did you get, did you get to meet Reagan?

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:38

He came there in, uh, 1980 three.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:43

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth: 00:24:44

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth: 00:24:44

And what did he say to you about your accomplishment?

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:47

Brought his, he brought his wife and uh, uh, just, uh.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:52

Being with, with a historical figure like that.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:55

It was a, a nice feeling.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:58

But once, yeah.

Jan Scruggs: 00:24:58

And what did he say to you specifically?

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:00

We were going 90 miles an hour, man.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:04

We had, uh, bulldozers and heavy equipment ripping the mall up

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:10

so that nobody could change it.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:13

I mean, they big holes in the ground.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:14

It looked like a, a war zone.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:17

But, uh, we had to beat these guys and, and we did.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:20

And, you know, not all of 'em.

Bill Erfurth: 00:25:23

And what, and, and Jan, what did Reagan say to you?

Bill Erfurth: 00:25:26

What was your interaction with him?

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:30

Our interaction was, uh, we had a couple of one meeting

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:34

in the White House and one of these guys, his name is Tom Shaw.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:41

He, uh, he was a fantastic leader, so we had people like that and, and I

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:48

think the president saw that this was going to be, it may be a little bit of

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:52

a risk, but let's, let's see if this works and give these guys a break.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:56

So he is.

Jan Scruggs: 00:25:59

I'm all in Ronald Reagan.

Jan Scruggs: 00:26:00

Not, not everybody likes him, but, uh, he doesn't, he doesn't have a lot of enemies.

Jan Scruggs: 00:26:05

You don't hear a lot, a lot of people complaining about Ronald

Jan Scruggs: 00:26:08

Reagan and back in the days of Ronald Reagan, people were more simple.

Bill Erfurth: 00:26:14

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth: 00:26:14

That's awesome, Craig?

Craig Floyd: 00:26:16

I just wanna maybe close with a comment and a question.

Craig Floyd: 00:26:21

Uh, the comment being that I think people need to understand that Jan Scruggs not

Craig Floyd: 00:26:26

only built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, but he was responsible in many ways,

Craig Floyd: 00:26:31

directly and indirectly, uh, with things like the Korean War Memorial that got

Craig Floyd: 00:26:37

built, uh, years later, the World War II Memorial, which had never, they never

Craig Floyd: 00:26:42

had a memorial in Washington DC Yeah.

Craig Floyd: 00:26:45

And, um, ultimately, uh, the National Law Enforcement Officers

Craig Floyd: 00:26:49

Memorial, among many others that followed after his success in 1982.

Craig Floyd: 00:26:54

So, Jan, you, you have truly, uh, accomplished quite a bit in your life.

Craig Floyd: 00:26:58

My friend, I, I wanna close with this question.

Craig Floyd: 00:27:01

This is the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam veterans or Vietnam War.

Craig Floyd: 00:27:07

Um, and, you know, it's many years since the memorial has been built,

Craig Floyd: 00:27:12

honoring those veterans who died there.

Craig Floyd: 00:27:14

Um, reflect, uh, just for a moment as we close out on the war itself, your memories

Craig Floyd: 00:27:21

of the war, what you think about the war today and, um, and, and how much of an

Craig Floyd: 00:27:27

impact do you think the Vietnam Veterans Memorial has made on this country?

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:34

Yes, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial is very inclusive.

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:38

It pulls people in to see it.

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:40

You know, when you go see the great monuments of Washington, you go see the

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:43

Lincoln and George Washington Memorial.

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:47

Fantastic.

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:48

But in order to appreciate them, you've gotta go back about 300 yards far enough

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:53

away that you can see the whole structure.

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:56

So, uh, fantastic.

Jan Scruggs: 00:27:59

Uh, we also, we were the guys who came up with the idea of

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:05

Memorial for the, uh, survivors of

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:10

Iraq and Afghanistan as well.

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:13

That's on the chopping block Now.

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:14

There there's going to be one, they have a night, a good staff, and, and, uh, the.

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:21

They'll have, they'll have a nice design.

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:23

So we're not leaving anybody, we're not trying to cr create the entire

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:28

world memorials or anything like that.

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:31

Uh, it's just, just a really nice thing to do and you get a feel that you're

Jan Scruggs: 00:28:35

doing something that is good for the nation, often are often divided nation.

Craig Floyd: 00:28:41

Well, let me just close by saying Jan, uh, you know, you've done

Craig Floyd: 00:28:45

many, uh, great things in your life.

Craig Floyd: 00:28:47

Certainly the Vietnam Veterans Memorial is at the top of the list, but, uh,

Craig Floyd: 00:28:51

you're also a hero behind the badge because if not for you, uh, I don't

Craig Floyd: 00:28:56

think we would have a national law enforcement officer's memorial today.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:00

I think it some point we might've had to give it up.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:03

Um, but you said it straight.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:04

We were successful.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:06

And today, uh, our National Law Enforcement officers memorial is,

Craig Floyd: 00:29:10

is very impactful, as is the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in terms of healing

Craig Floyd: 00:29:15

for the surviving family members of officers, uh, who died in the line of

Craig Floyd: 00:29:18

duty, as well as an appreciation that in your case, was not shown to Vietnam

Craig Floyd: 00:29:23

veterans when they returned from the war.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:26

Uh, and I think, uh, the same is true of police officers in this country.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:29

I don't think they've been appreciated nearly enough by this country, but those

Craig Floyd: 00:29:34

two memorials have made the difference.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:36

Today people do appreciate those soldiers who fought in Vietnam

Craig Floyd: 00:29:40

just as they appreciate the men and women in law enforcement who are

Craig Floyd: 00:29:44

serve and protect our communities every day at great personal risk.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:48

So thank you, my friend.

Craig Floyd: 00:29:49

It's been great to reminisce and uh, I wish you well and, uh, again, a

Craig Floyd: 00:29:53

big thank you for all you did, uh, to support law enforcement in this country.

Jan Scruggs: 00:29:59

Uh, thank you for your big role.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:01

You did this, uh, on your own.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:05

You didn't have much in, in the way of staff, but you, you've, you've,

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:10

you stopped the guys at the, at the gates, so it was very good.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:14

We had some, uh, we opponents as well.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:18

The law enforcement memorial.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:21

But anyway, we beat them back and everything's fine.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:24

So God, not easy.

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:25

The 50th anniversary is coming up, are these

Dennis Collins: 00:30:28

right?

Jan Scruggs: 00:30:28

War in Vietnam and other wars, but uh,

Dennis Collins: 00:30:31

wow.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:32

Hard to believe, isn't it?

Dennis Collins: 00:30:34

Yeah.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:35

Hey Jan. Uh, thanks for joining us on Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:39

This is a story that needed to be told and thanks for telling it.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:43

Also, thank you for your service.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:46

Thank you for your amazing vision of how to memorialize

Dennis Collins: 00:30:50

the people who count the heroes.

Dennis Collins: 00:30:52

And most important, thank you for your help in making the National Law

Dennis Collins: 00:30:56

Enforcement memorial, um, a, a reality.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:01

A place where we never forget.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:04

We'll never forget our war heroes, our Vietnam War heroes, and we'll

Dennis Collins: 00:31:07

never forget our heroes behind the badge in no small part.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:11

Thanks to you

Dennis Collins: 00:31:14

Heroes.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:14

Behind the Badge podcast, we tell the real stories about real cops.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:19

We expose the fake news about the police.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:22

We give you the real truth.

Dennis Collins: 00:31:25

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Dennis Collins: 00:31:28

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Dennis Collins: 00:31:32

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Again, thanks to Jan Scruggs, our guest.

Dennis Collins: 00:32:47

Thanks to Bill Erfurth, Craig Floyd, my colleagues.

Dennis Collins: 00:32:50

This is Dennis Collins signing off for this edition of Heroes Behind the Badge.