Rick Harcrow — Inside Attica: The Stats, the Families, and the Hidden Cost | Part 2
Rick Harcrow spent 37 years as a correctional officer at Attica Correctional Facility — home of the deadliest prison riot in American history. In Part 2, the conversation goes deeper: from the daily realities of working inside one of America's most dangerous institutions to the political decisions that shaped how officers and their families were treated for decades.
Rick opens the episode with a story that sets the tone for everything that follows. Three days into a law library assignment, an inmate told him he planned to murder him when he got the chance. Rick turned around and said: "Nah, that's not gonna happen." That response — measured, unflinching, rooted in experience — defines how he approaches every subject in this conversation.
The numbers are hard to hear. Around 300 inmate-on-inmate assaults per year at Attica — nearly one per day — were quietly suppressed by a department more concerned with appearances than accountability. The families of officers killed in the 1971 Attica riot were pressured into signing away their right to sue in exchange for six months of workman's comp. Two decades later, those same inmates received a $12 million settlement while widows were waiting for roof repairs. Rick helped organize the Attica Forgotten Victims group as a union leader and credits Governor George Pataki with ultimately doing right by those families.
The conversation covers ground that rarely gets an honest treatment: the debate over reopening Alcatraz and what 40,000 released New York inmates actually means for crime, the Jeffrey Epstein suicide watch and the systemic failures that made a 14-minute window possible, the CO strike that put 10,000 officers on the picket line, and what unprocessed stress quietly does to the men and women who spend careers inside those walls. Rick closes with a warning a psychologist gave him as a rookie — one he credits with saving his life.
This is Part 2 of a two-part conversation with Rick Harcrow. Part 1 covers his early years at Attica and the assault that nearly cost him everything in the law library. Both parts are available now.
Transcript
This guy told me the third day, he says,
Speaker:"You know, you keep fucking with me.
Speaker:You know, I'm gonna murder
Speaker:you when I get the chance."
Speaker:I turned around and looked at him.
Speaker:Now, I had five years on the job, he
Speaker:thought I was a rookie.
Speaker:I said, "Nah, that's not gonna happen."
Speaker:(Upbeat Music)
Speaker:37 years behind the walls of
Speaker:America's most feared prison.
Speaker:The threats, the burnout,
Speaker:and whether he'd do it again.
Speaker:Rick Harcrow spent
Speaker:37 years inside Attica.
Speaker:The history he inherited was soaked in
Speaker:blood, but living inside those walls
Speaker:created its own dangers, including one
Speaker:afternoon in the law library.
Speaker:He's never forgotten.
Speaker:You're in the midst of all of these
Speaker:savages that you're
Speaker:supposed to be overseeing.
Speaker:How many times did you feel that it was
Speaker:right on the edge that it could have gone
Speaker:either way, where you
Speaker:could have gotten killed?
Speaker:Yeah, I had an inmate.
Speaker:I had five years on the job and I was
Speaker:working, I don't know,
Speaker:they put me on the day shift.
Speaker:Most of us went to afternoons.
Speaker:And they put me in the law library for a
Speaker:couple of weeks temporary.
Speaker:And I had to go up to the special housing
Speaker:unit, the lockdown unit, ad seg,
Speaker:not solitary confinement.
Speaker:And I had to deliver them law books.
Speaker:So I was delivering the
Speaker:law books for the same date.
Speaker:They had to sign for them, because they
Speaker:were always claiming we didn't give them
Speaker:any of the legal rights.
Speaker:So we had a form, you write the book you
Speaker:want, write the digest, write the
Speaker:lawyer's digest, and you write the
Speaker:numbers and we give it to you.
Speaker:For I give it to you, you sign the paper,
Speaker:saying you received it to cover us.
Speaker:Okay, so I'll never forget, does it mean
Speaker:three days in a row ordered this book?
Speaker:I can remember the numbers.
Speaker:Federal digest, like 295.
Speaker:It was General Motors
Speaker:versus an insurance case.
Speaker:Someone got in a chiropractor killed.
Speaker:They were suing them.
Speaker:So I don't look at the numbers.
Speaker:I'm a correction officer.
Speaker:I'm not a lawyer, right?
Speaker:I just supply the equipment.
Speaker:I said, you don't know
Speaker:what you're ordered, man.
Speaker:You only give me my legal work.
Speaker:I said, I gave you the
Speaker:same book three days in a row.
Speaker:You know, I actually read it.
Speaker:You don't know what
Speaker:the hell you're ordering.
Speaker:Then I realized years
Speaker:later, he was playing the game.
Speaker:The more paperwork they put in the
Speaker:prison, the more they'll ship them to
Speaker:another prison trying to keep the peace.
Speaker:He obviously, a lot of them, here's the
Speaker:big, a lot of them go to protective
Speaker:custody in a shoot
Speaker:because of their fellow inmates.
Speaker:The officer's never going to bother them.
Speaker:Fellow inmates.
Speaker:And when we would take away a bad guy, 30
Speaker:years later, I'm in the van.
Speaker:The guy says, you know, H, they couldn't
Speaker:pronounce my name, thank God.
Speaker:I didn't want them to know my last name.
Speaker:He said, when you take a bad guy away, if
Speaker:he's messing with the police, he messes
Speaker:with us 10 times as bad.
Speaker:That's why when you take a guy away, we
Speaker:don't have a problem with him.
Speaker:And I'm like, wow, I got
Speaker:30 years on the job, man.
Speaker:I never realized that.
Speaker:But they're extorting,
Speaker:they're robbing, they're thieving,
Speaker:they're sexually assaulting them,
Speaker:you know, all the time.
Speaker:Rick, as you say that, I mean, would you
Speaker:say that the stereotype that I think most
Speaker:civilians have of prisons, especially
Speaker:prisons with hardened criminals like
Speaker:Attica, that there is
Speaker:rampant, you know, assaults,
Speaker:prisoner on prisoner, there's a race,
Speaker:there's prisoners on prisoners.
Speaker:I mean, this actually
Speaker:is happening in Attica.
Speaker:We'd have an assault in
Speaker:some prisons back in the day.
Speaker:I don't have the current numbers.
Speaker:I've been retired six
Speaker:years, like 300 a year.
Speaker:300 a year.
Speaker:So that's almost one a day.
Speaker:And then the last, you know, what's
Speaker:confessional wisdom
Speaker:in this country, right?
Speaker:Any corporation, any business, keep
Speaker:things quiet, keep things routine, don't
Speaker:let anybody get upset.
Speaker:A lot of times we call the DOCS, the
Speaker:Department of Comrades.
Speaker:They wouldn't report what was happening.
Speaker:And it would have infuriated us.
Speaker:You know, we said, we had one time we
Speaker:were rookies and I was
Speaker:just learning the business.
Speaker:I worked at C-block was
Speaker:one of the toughest blocks.
Speaker:And we ran a good prison.
Speaker:One night an inmate stabbed another
Speaker:inmate with a broken broomstick.
Speaker:He broke the broomstick off.
Speaker:They used to sweep the floors.
Speaker:We got inmate porters, right?
Speaker:Clean the place.
Speaker:And he stabs the guy.
Speaker:Department spokesman two days later,
Speaker:normally that would never make the press.
Speaker:Well, somebody leaked it
Speaker:or somebody let it out.
Speaker:And the department spokesman said, nobody
Speaker:got stabbed with a knife.
Speaker:And we all looked at some, what the hell
Speaker:is this idiot saying?
Speaker:Right, nobody got stabbed with a knife.
Speaker:He got stabbed with a
Speaker:broken broom handle.
Speaker:Does that make a
Speaker:difference to the stambi?
Speaker:And that's when we started to realize,
Speaker:you know, the politics in this world, you
Speaker:know, we called it the DOCS, the
Speaker:Department of Coverups.
Speaker:That was a joke
Speaker:between the staff, you know?
Speaker:We were talking, why
Speaker:aren't you prosecuting?
Speaker:And they used to tell
Speaker:us, well, it was money.
Speaker:And if the guy's doing 20 years, why are
Speaker:we gonna prosecute him?
Speaker:And it would infuriate us.
Speaker:And I'd say, yeah, well, give
Speaker:him three years consecutive.
Speaker:Because once in a while
Speaker:they'll do a, what is it?
Speaker:Consecutive or concurrent, where they add
Speaker:on three more years, not
Speaker:run it at the same time.
Speaker:We're like, you're not
Speaker:teaching these guys anything.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it was terrible.
Speaker:I have a comment and then a question.
Speaker:Getting back to what you all were
Speaker:describing, life for a correctional
Speaker:officer, behind the walls, dealing with
Speaker:the dregs of society, et cetera.
Speaker:I met one of your friends, Rick, a
Speaker:correctional officer from Michigan.
Speaker:And we were discussing, you know, how
Speaker:much appreciation do you ever get as a
Speaker:correctional officer?
Speaker:Do you ever get a thank you?
Speaker:And he said to me, Craig, I worked for
Speaker:more than 30 years behind the walls at a
Speaker:prison facility in Michigan.
Speaker:And he said, I got one thank you the
Speaker:entire time I served.
Speaker:And he said, that was a prisoner who
Speaker:actually suffered a heart attack.
Speaker:He did CPR on him, saved his life.
Speaker:And that prisoner, maybe begrudgingly, I
Speaker:don't know, actually did say thank you to
Speaker:that correctional
Speaker:officer for saving his life.
Speaker:But he said, other than that, never got
Speaker:one thank you from any inmate, never got
Speaker:any sense of appreciation.
Speaker:And this is what bothers me about the
Speaker:lack of respect and appreciation that our
Speaker:correctional officers
Speaker:in this country get.
Speaker:It's infuriating to me to think that, you
Speaker:know, you're busting your butt and
Speaker:putting your life on the line every day
Speaker:in that facility, and never getting any
Speaker:appreciation because the people you're
Speaker:protecting are the inmates who obviously
Speaker:could care less about themselves, let
Speaker:alone the people that are protecting them
Speaker:and keeping them secure.
Speaker:So that's always bothered me.
Speaker:That's why I'm so thankful
Speaker:that we're doing this podcast.
Speaker:That's why I'm thankful that we recognize
Speaker:those correctional officers who died in
Speaker:the line of duty, hundreds of them, whose
Speaker:names are on the National Law Enforcement
Speaker:Officers Memorial, and that we have a
Speaker:featured exhibition, a major exhibition
Speaker:in the National Law Enforcement Museum
Speaker:dedicated to the men and women who serve
Speaker:the correctional community.
Speaker:So I'm very thankful myself.
Speaker:But here's the question.
Speaker:The question is, could what happened in
Speaker:September of 1971 with the Attica Prison
Speaker:Riot, could it happen again today?
Speaker:I mean, we haven't, that I can recall, I
Speaker:haven't heard of a prison riot of any
Speaker:great magnitude in many, many years, if
Speaker:not decades, but could it happen?
Speaker:And what's preventing it from happening?
Speaker:Absolutely, absolutely
Speaker:could happen anytime, anywhere.
Speaker:Oh, back up to the riot and the early
Speaker:questions, you know,
Speaker:there were a lot of lessons that were
Speaker:learned from the Attica Riot.
Speaker:Most were bad, some were good, you know?
Speaker:We learned to treat the inmates civilly
Speaker:and they were beforehand, but it was low
Speaker:pay, lousy jobs, no
Speaker:bad food they thought.
Speaker:Like I said, I wasn't there, you know,
Speaker:and not a lot of out of cell time.
Speaker:You know, five o'clock, 5.30 at night,
Speaker:they did the count and they stayed in all
Speaker:night until the morning.
Speaker:Now we changed all that, like I said,
Speaker:they run like small cities, they got
Speaker:decent food, they got, you know, a lot of
Speaker:cell time out and all the social
Speaker:programs, school programs.
Speaker:So, you know, and inmates, leave it or
Speaker:not, would thank us.
Speaker:They would thank us for being straight.
Speaker:They would thank us for being on duty.
Speaker:They'd say, "Hey, thank you, Officer H,
Speaker:because we know when you're here, you're
Speaker:not gonna let no baloney come down."
Speaker:You know, the golden rule was the old
Speaker:timers who went through the riot, like
Speaker:combat veterans, say, "You don't want no
Speaker:part of a war, you don't
Speaker:want no part of a riot."
Speaker:You give them everything they got coming,
Speaker:nothing more, nothing less.
Speaker:And we treat them civilly, you know.
Speaker:Some people say what we expect, that's
Speaker:all aligned too far
Speaker:for correction officers.
Speaker:We expect, we treat them civilly.
Speaker:We teach the young guys, all business,
Speaker:kid, you wanna go to the yard, you wanna
Speaker:go to program, you wanna go to your
Speaker:visit, you wanna go to medical, go.
Speaker:If not, all you gotta do is no argument,
Speaker:you just step back in yourself, close the
Speaker:door, I don't care if you stay.
Speaker:We had an inmate, Davidson, five years
Speaker:was up in his shoe, and I had to transfer
Speaker:him out, and he was going home, and they
Speaker:couldn't believe, they thought he was a
Speaker:mental health inmate, cause he wouldn't
Speaker:speak to anybody for five years.
Speaker:So I get him out in a van, and he took a
Speaker:poop, and I'll be a little graphic in the
Speaker:corner of his cell, and we'd only go in
Speaker:there once in a while to frisk him, and
Speaker:he must have had a bread seat in there,
Speaker:and a little plant grew out of it, and he
Speaker:said, that's my plant.
Speaker:We didn't have CERT teams, correct some
Speaker:emergency response teams back then, that
Speaker:was one of the good things
Speaker:that came out of the riot.
Speaker:So they used to just get the big two
Speaker:strongest COs, biggest guys that could
Speaker:come in, couple of them go in there, grab
Speaker:the guy, and drag him
Speaker:out, whatever he did.
Speaker:So now we have it, so I get him in a van,
Speaker:and we put a bit of lock on me, and I got
Speaker:all these big CERT guys around me, and I
Speaker:said, "Fels, could I talk to him?"
Speaker:He's like 30 years out of job, and I
Speaker:know, when you're straight with them,
Speaker:they'll be straight
Speaker:with you, a lot of them.
Speaker:So he turns around, he said, "Can you
Speaker:step out of the room?"
Speaker:We have locked in this
Speaker:telephone booth visit.
Speaker:They were jumping each other in their
Speaker:rooms back in the day.
Speaker:So we had to come up with, we'd seen the
Speaker:California built these little pens that
Speaker:they could sit in
Speaker:there and get in the class.
Speaker:So anyway, I tell them, I said, "Hey man,
Speaker:you're getting out, it's your lucky day.
Speaker:You're going back to Brooklyn, I'm taking
Speaker:you down, can you step down and just file
Speaker:the rules where we can
Speaker:get you out of here?"
Speaker:And he goes, "H.I. remember you, man.
Speaker:You worked at C-Block with me.
Speaker:You always a good
Speaker:officer, straight guy, no BS."
Speaker:And I said, "I'm going to tell you
Speaker:straight up, I don't like people messing
Speaker:with me, personally.
Speaker:So I don't mess with people.
Speaker:I'm going to tell you the rules, you
Speaker:follow them, you
Speaker:don't even know I'm here.
Speaker:If you want to make a problem, I got no
Speaker:problem hitting the alarm and calling for
Speaker:help, sending you
Speaker:wherever you need to go.
Speaker:Oh, no, thank you, get me out of here."
Speaker:In the van he tells me, "These are fellow
Speaker:inmates, they want to push up on me.
Speaker:So I beat up a couple of them."
Speaker:And he was a medium sized guy.
Speaker:Said they were going to rape
Speaker:me, beat me up all the time.
Speaker:So I said, "Screw this."
Speaker:I lumped a couple guys up, "You sent me
Speaker:this special housing unit and I stayed
Speaker:the whole five years."
Speaker:He talked so much, we had a rookie in the
Speaker:back because he was a
Speaker:special inmate watch.
Speaker:He didn't stop for the four, five, six
Speaker:hours all the way from Attica to
Speaker:Manhattan, we dropped them off.
Speaker:He hadn't talked to
Speaker:anybody in five years, sincerely.
Speaker:You got these advocate groups, "Oh, five
Speaker:days in the shoe is a
Speaker:mental health problem.
Speaker:BS, BS.
Speaker:These guys are tough,
Speaker:they can handle that."
Speaker:I've never seen one of them.
Speaker:We had 25% of inmates with
Speaker:mental health issues, sincere.
Speaker:I worked at Mental Health Unit for 10
Speaker:years or an hour earlier here.
Speaker:Rick, I want to change the subject a
Speaker:little bit because I want to bring it
Speaker:back to some recent events and I want to
Speaker:get your opinion on those things.
Speaker:Could I stop you one second?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Attica, and I'll be brief for once.
Speaker:After the Attica riot, they really
Speaker:stiffed these families.
Speaker:They went to the
Speaker:graveyards, they went to their homes.
Speaker:These are down home folk,
Speaker:1971, in the middle of village.
Speaker:Mothers didn't work back
Speaker:then, they raised the kids.
Speaker:These guys were making peanuts.
Speaker:They said, "We're gonna take care of you.
Speaker:Sign off on this and
Speaker:we'll send you their check."
Speaker:They sent them a six
Speaker:month workman's comp program.
Speaker:And then one family had eight kids.
Speaker:They were under the poverty line.
Speaker:And once they signed off on a check, they
Speaker:eliminated their right to sue.
Speaker:Now I'm understanding with police and
Speaker:firemen that if they get killed in the
Speaker:line of duty and that's what
Speaker:happened to these officers,
Speaker:they'll promote it to the next level and
Speaker:give them their money and a pension.
Speaker:They didn't do that.
Speaker:They gave them some little life insurance
Speaker:policy that was peanuts back then.
Speaker:And then they were on their own.
Speaker:It was so bad that town actually came up
Speaker:with a little program with
Speaker:a little bit of money there.
Speaker:Some poor widow needed a roof.
Speaker:They fixed their roof.
Speaker:But if somebody needed their sink or
Speaker:their toilet or a plumbing, they'd have
Speaker:to wait till the next year.
Speaker:20 years later, approximately, they gave
Speaker:the inmates a $12 million
Speaker:award for the excessive force.
Speaker:That's when this Attica forgotten victims
Speaker:group, the officers'
Speaker:families came to light.
Speaker:I had become a union leader in Attica.
Speaker:I couldn't believe these stories either,
Speaker:that the state would do that to them.
Speaker:Bad enough they got killed in a riot and
Speaker:they just hung them out there.
Speaker:And they formed this little group, these
Speaker:little poor little ladies who had lived
Speaker:in poverty for 20 years with families.
Speaker:This was down home moms.
Speaker:They didn't work back then.
Speaker:And when they told me the story that poor
Speaker:Deke Quinn, she was a spokesman for them.
Speaker:She was five years old.
Speaker:Her father was William Quinn that was
Speaker:murdered in Times Square.
Speaker:She hadn't seen her
Speaker:father for five years.
Speaker:I said she was five years old.
Speaker:So 25, 30 years.
Speaker:Yeah, some crazy stories, huh?
Speaker:We actually, Governor George Pataki,
Speaker:excellent man, should
Speaker:have been the president.
Speaker:He heard our stories and he read with us
Speaker:and they came to a, gave them the same
Speaker:money that they gave to the inmates, the
Speaker:12 million total figure
Speaker:over so many families.
Speaker:I don't know the details,
Speaker:it was none of my business.
Speaker:But he actually did the right thing.
Speaker:So I wanna give him kudos.
Speaker:And people don't know that, that these
Speaker:poor families lived in
Speaker:poverty for all them years.
Speaker:And they told them, don't
Speaker:talk about this to anyone.
Speaker:And these poor down home folks never did.
Speaker:There was one woman must
Speaker:have had a smart family.
Speaker:I forget who her
Speaker:husband was or family member.
Speaker:They told, don't sign it.
Speaker:The lawyer came to us and he said, I got
Speaker:that check, it's in my safe.
Speaker:30 years later, she got like
Speaker:a million dollar settlement.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:And you know, by the way, that was before
Speaker:the Public Safety Officers Benefits
Speaker:Program was put in
Speaker:place by Congress, 1976.
Speaker:They started providing a federal death
Speaker:benefit to the families of public safety
Speaker:officers killed in the line of duty.
Speaker:And those correctional officers at Attica
Speaker:would today be eligible to receive that
Speaker:death benefit, which is hundreds of
Speaker:thousands of dollars today.
Speaker:It's going up each year with
Speaker:a cost of living adjustment.
Speaker:But you point out a very important point
Speaker:that back then, the families were not
Speaker:well taken care of at all.
Speaker:The families of those officers who died
Speaker:during the Attica prison.
Speaker:And let me give up one minute.
Speaker:Let me give up the New York State
Speaker:Department of Corrections or
Speaker:New York State legislature.
Speaker:We had in our contract that if you got
Speaker:the federal money, that they would deduct
Speaker:any money that the state gave them.
Speaker:Who would ever agree to that kind of a...
Speaker:Right, that's very...
Speaker:As you always said, the New York State
Speaker:Department of Corrections and New York
Speaker:State, I don't know why.
Speaker:Somebody told me, I don't know if it was
Speaker:the riot, 1979, probably accumulation of
Speaker:both, but for some reason the state did
Speaker:not like correction officers.
Speaker:And I believe that.
Speaker:Maybe because we're a vocal group, all
Speaker:the state employees will keep quiet.
Speaker:But COs, they're law and order guys.
Speaker:They really were at
Speaker:Attica, I was proud of them.
Speaker:Rick's 37 years inside gave him a clear
Speaker:lens on the debates shaping
Speaker:American corrections today.
Speaker:Rick, it was a very good thing.
Speaker:It was a great thing that you were part
Speaker:of the union and leading that union and
Speaker:leading the charge to support all these
Speaker:correctional officers because it's a
Speaker:tough job, unrewarding job.
Speaker:And it's great that you stepped up to the
Speaker:plate and did the right thing.
Speaker:And all the years of experience you have
Speaker:now, I wanna ask you two
Speaker:questions now to change the topic.
Speaker:You know, the discussion these days is
Speaker:about opening Alcatraz again.
Speaker:I wanna know what you think about that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Well, I'll tell you, you need, I'm a law
Speaker:and order guy and I believe in
Speaker:rehabilitation, but you got murderers,
Speaker:whether they're cop killers or people,
Speaker:you know, people I go,
Speaker:well, what is a cop specialty?
Speaker:Because the poor guy, law enforcement
Speaker:officer, puts his uniform on to try to
Speaker:protect and serve us.
Speaker:He should get double the protection.
Speaker:But no, if somebody stands and kills my
Speaker:mother, no, he should
Speaker:go to jail forever too.
Speaker:I thought there's no, I
Speaker:agree with my own colleagues.
Speaker:No, no, no, a killer, a killer,
Speaker:stay locked up.
Speaker:No, look, they've let out 40,000 inmates
Speaker:in New York and they're trying to tell us
Speaker:that there's no crime rates going down.
Speaker:I'm telling you there ain't no way in
Speaker:hell 40,000 career
Speaker:criminals out in the streets
Speaker:aren't bringing the crime rate up.
Speaker:And my cop buddy said, Ricky, there's no
Speaker:federal estate requirement
Speaker:to report crimes anywhere.
Speaker:But we know, you know, they're doing all
Speaker:kinds of, all you gotta do is watch, I
Speaker:love the New York Post, they're right
Speaker:wingers, but they put it the subway, the
Speaker:woman gets burned alive,
Speaker:stabbed, people get shot.
Speaker:I'm like, come on, you need, you need a
Speaker:secure environment for killers.
Speaker:And no, Mark, Mark, That would be a yes,
Speaker:that would be a yes.
Speaker:I want to be in the health of the crime.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I mean, the problem with this country is,
Speaker:I go, don't happen to
Speaker:me, I'm okay with it.
Speaker:If you lose your job, I
Speaker:feel bad, but I'm okay with it.
Speaker:But when you know
Speaker:them, then it's not okay.
Speaker:I said, you gotta think like that's your
Speaker:mother, your father, your
Speaker:brother, your sister, right?
Speaker:Your neighbor, how would you feel?
Speaker:Of course you want
Speaker:them locked up forever.
Speaker:Yeah, they want them more
Speaker:than locked up, believe me.
Speaker:Oh, hey.
Speaker:So here's the other thing.
Speaker:So all of your years of experience,
Speaker:you've been on the inside there.
Speaker:I want to hear your
Speaker:thoughts and perspective
Speaker:on the Jeffrey
Speaker:Epstein suicide in custody.
Speaker:What do you think?
Speaker:You know what we say?
Speaker:Tell us.
Speaker:You'll never know.
Speaker:You know, truthfully, we'll never know.
Speaker:But what do you think?
Speaker:If somebody can do
Speaker:it, the cameras are bad.
Speaker:Well, I would think personally,
Speaker:this guy was no dummy, and he was a math
Speaker:teacher who
Speaker:manipulated the market, right?
Speaker:He was a big shot in his own little crew
Speaker:before they found out he was such a
Speaker:despicable human being.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:He could have hung himself.
Speaker:He could have hung himself saying, well,
Speaker:I went from being a kingpin to now I'm a
Speaker:scumbag like everybody, all
Speaker:these other bumps in the world.
Speaker:You imagine going from, I live in a
Speaker:modest home, 2,000 square feet in Super.
Speaker:You imagine going from them mansions to a
Speaker:six by nine cell, you sleep three feet,
Speaker:two feet from your toilet,
Speaker:you know, which I'm gonna deal with.
Speaker:What a lifestyle change, no doubt.
Speaker:But it was kind of the perfect storm of
Speaker:how everything kind of happened.
Speaker:And, you know, do you
Speaker:think that's a-- That's
Speaker:a bad for them?
Speaker:No, not with the
Speaker:heinous crimes they committed.
Speaker:No, you know,
Speaker:we laugh at these big stars and these
Speaker:wealthy individuals.
Speaker:You could meet a woman anywhere in the
Speaker:world or a man, whatever you're into.
Speaker:Why would you go after underage or why
Speaker:would you force anyone?
Speaker:Or why would you, if regular eyes like
Speaker:God's can get dates.
Speaker:(Laughing)
Speaker:I'd say dates for them have a Chevy.
Speaker:I've got a Ferrari.
Speaker:I'm sure some women in my neighborhood
Speaker:wouldn't mind going for a ride with me.
Speaker:Hey, so what do you say then?
Speaker:So what's the bottom line for you?
Speaker:You think you did commit suicide?
Speaker:You know, truthfully,
Speaker:I've seen them all the time.
Speaker:People commit suicide in prisons.
Speaker:I believe we could.
Speaker:I believe we could.
Speaker:How does it work though?
Speaker:It's my understanding that he attempted
Speaker:to die by suicide earlier than the actual
Speaker:suicide that they claim caused the death.
Speaker:That's when somebody dropped the ball.
Speaker:Right, so he's under a suicide watch.
Speaker:So my question to you as a correctional
Speaker:officer is, okay, what special measures
Speaker:are taken to prevent that person from
Speaker:dying by suicide and why
Speaker:didn't that save his life?
Speaker:Well, years ago, we
Speaker:had a really good system.
Speaker:I can tell you, 1984, when I got in there
Speaker:after the riot, they
Speaker:learned a lot of good lessons.
Speaker:We would take a guy's strip cell.
Speaker:We would take all his clothes.
Speaker:We'd put him in a, it was a cell with,
Speaker:some of them were just like a concrete
Speaker:bed, some were to steal,
Speaker:no fabric at all.
Speaker:And he would sit in there butt naked
Speaker:until he learned to, that was the way,
Speaker:and then these advocates,
Speaker:who said that was inhumane.
Speaker:And we said, "What would
Speaker:we give them their clothes?"
Speaker:They hang themselves with their pants or
Speaker:their shirts or their, and then they came
Speaker:up with this Barney Rubble suit.
Speaker:It looked like the Flintstones, or the
Speaker:old one piece shoulder
Speaker:straps that Fred and Barney wore.
Speaker:And it was fabric, Betis was strong.
Speaker:Well, these guys learned, they're
Speaker:ingenious, these bums, they ripped it
Speaker:apart, and they'll take the strings,
Speaker:they'll hang themselves with that.
Speaker:In fact, we had an incident in Attica,
Speaker:where they blamed the officers and the
Speaker:sergeant on this suicide, and I said,
Speaker:"'Cause you make us give
Speaker:them their clothes back.
Speaker:People don't listen to comments.
Speaker:Get to the legislator making these laws
Speaker:and say you're wrong.
Speaker:I'm not saying you're an idiot, you don't
Speaker:know what you're doing.
Speaker:I'm saying you don't understand what we
Speaker:were accomplishing
Speaker:here, then don't blame us."
Speaker:Well, no, these- When the sergeant fired
Speaker:and the officers fired over that, and
Speaker:they were good officers.
Speaker:I'm like, "You make them give them the
Speaker:clothes, and nobody in the superintendent
Speaker:in his depth won't go in and say, "Well,
Speaker:the law's saying we have to give them
Speaker:their clothes," and they used it.
Speaker:And we would, for people don't
Speaker:understand, we don't
Speaker:have one-on-one officers.
Speaker:Like I said, we had 600
Speaker:officers, 2,200 inmates.
Speaker:Back in the day, we had
Speaker:to make rounds every hour.
Speaker:Then for me, the mental health unit was
Speaker:like every half an hour.
Speaker:Now I believe they got
Speaker:them every 15 minutes.
Speaker:But what people don't understand is,
Speaker:I make it around every 15 minutes, and
Speaker:you got me on camera.
Speaker:He has 14 minutes to hang
Speaker:himself before I'm back.
Speaker:Well, you know, and the other- You were
Speaker:doing a lot of watches.
Speaker:The other thing is you're talking about
Speaker:people that are the most
Speaker:treacherous, diabolical minds.
Speaker:They have all day to sit there in a cell
Speaker:and figure shit out and think things
Speaker:through, and they figure a way.
Speaker:Right, we got cartel guys, we had mafia
Speaker:guys, we had every different gang members
Speaker:you could believe in.
Speaker:It was funny, like I said, in New York,
Speaker:some states, big states like California,
Speaker:they got guns and they
Speaker:got double the population.
Speaker:Their business is just running people.
Speaker:They say they never get
Speaker:a chance to talk to them.
Speaker:Well, we didn't have guns,
Speaker:we had to talk to these guys.
Speaker:And when you get them
Speaker:alone, they tell you everything.
Speaker:These guys sit around telling you that
Speaker:Columbus just does money in this country,
Speaker:there'll be nothing officer in Columbia,
Speaker:I get girls, I get food, I get drugs, I
Speaker:get moves right to myself.
Speaker:And New York rookies would go, what?
Speaker:I go, no, you ever go on Netflix.
Speaker:There's reporters who
Speaker:do these documentaries.
Speaker:It's all true, it's all true.
Speaker:Hey, Rick,
Speaker:unfortunately we're coming to a close,
Speaker:but I do have a final question
Speaker:and it's a two-part question.
Speaker:There were some of the correctional
Speaker:officers, maybe all of them, who were
Speaker:involved in the Attica Prison Riot, some
Speaker:who were taken hostage.
Speaker:I've heard their stories personally,
Speaker:and they were nearly killed, all right?
Speaker:Or some of them very
Speaker:seriously injured, shot several times.
Speaker:They went back to work at Attica, days
Speaker:later, months later, but they went back.
Speaker:And it's hard for me to understand why
Speaker:they would have done that.
Speaker:And then the second part of the question
Speaker:is, would you recommend a career in
Speaker:corrections today to young people?
Speaker:Yeah, well, back then,
Speaker:like I said, it was down home.
Speaker:There wasn't much to do.
Speaker:It was either be a
Speaker:farmer or get a state job.
Speaker:So corrections, a lot of
Speaker:guys, I wouldn't use Mr.
Speaker:Allmeader's name.
Speaker:He was one of the hostages.
Speaker:They beat the living hell out of him.
Speaker:They didn't tell him
Speaker:they stripped him naked.
Speaker:They whacked him with their sticks and
Speaker:brooms and beat him whatever
Speaker:way, walking to a gauntlet.
Speaker:Nobody ever tells you all that.
Speaker:They treated him bad.
Speaker:They didn't kill him, they got.
Speaker:And they said they're the family.
Speaker:They had nothing else to do.
Speaker:And they went back to work.
Speaker:And I give them all the clues in the
Speaker:world because I'll be a
Speaker:little bit outrageous.
Speaker:I said, I would have went back there,
Speaker:punched the superintendent in the mouth,
Speaker:probably said, I'll set
Speaker:a block on fire and left.
Speaker:That's what I would have done.
Speaker:Yeah, I don't suggest that you do that.
Speaker:And the second one, we just had 10,000
Speaker:officers walk on a
Speaker:strike and unbelievable.
Speaker:As a union leader, I used to say, we
Speaker:should go on strike.
Speaker:My vice president of the Sharp guys said,
Speaker:we can't be able to tell all these guys
Speaker:live paycheck to
Speaker:paycheck, we're working steps.
Speaker:And I said, I understand.
Speaker:But the only thing this government, this
Speaker:state in America ever
Speaker:understands is money.
Speaker:So these guys walked off the job and I
Speaker:couldn't believe it.
Speaker:And they called me up because I know I
Speaker:represented them, I think for 26 years in
Speaker:one way, shape or form.
Speaker:Most of these guys couldn't take the
Speaker:pressure and they'd
Speaker:last one term or something.
Speaker:But I'm an old steel worker, auto worker,
Speaker:stand up for yourself.
Speaker:That's the only way
Speaker:we made things better.
Speaker:So these poor COs, I'm
Speaker:like, and I was one of them.
Speaker:I said, oh yeah, they can't pay us enough
Speaker:for this environment.
Speaker:But if we get the best pay and the best
Speaker:benefits that we can,
Speaker:here's the hard part about being law
Speaker:enforcement and the CO, the
Speaker:job will always be the job.
Speaker:You'll always be surrounded by inmates.
Speaker:You'll always be locked up.
Speaker:Like we used to say, if you did 25 years
Speaker:in New York, 8 1 3rd, you
Speaker:were locked behind the wall.
Speaker:So as a correction
Speaker:officer, you did it 8 1 3rd
Speaker:and got like me with 37,
Speaker:I must've did 12 years.
Speaker:And then they got them working such crazy
Speaker:hours because they're low staff.
Speaker:I mean, like I used to work two, three
Speaker:days over time, about 800 hours a year.
Speaker:These guys are working
Speaker:thousand, 2000, 3000 hours.
Speaker:I don't know how that's possible because
Speaker:one year I did about
Speaker:960, I was a walking zombie.
Speaker:I couldn't function.
Speaker:But I worked three days in a row, some
Speaker:early shifts, some hospital duty.
Speaker:I fell out at the hospital.
Speaker:The boss had to send me a relief.
Speaker:They took me up to the ER and the doctor
Speaker:says, well, rich
Speaker:officer, what are you doing?
Speaker:I go doc, three hours of
Speaker:sleep, last three nights.
Speaker:He said, officer,
Speaker:you're gonna kill yourself.
Speaker:Are you crazy?
Speaker:You need sleep.
Speaker:You're dehydrated.
Speaker:So then they came up with 24 hour shifts,
Speaker:which I don't know
Speaker:whoever agreed to that.
Speaker:You can't, I couldn't do more than 16.
Speaker:You fall asleep.
Speaker:They used to want to write us
Speaker:up if they caught us sleeping.
Speaker:And what do you do now?
Speaker:And now they got these
Speaker:guys under emergency.
Speaker:I hate to say it, New York state
Speaker:government, this is rich, our girl
Speaker:speaking, nobody else.
Speaker:Terrible, terrible working condition.
Speaker:The governor and the commissioner said,
Speaker:oh, they'll look into it.
Speaker:They did nothing for these guys.
Speaker:And these guys had told me, Ricky, if
Speaker:you're working during the week, Monday to
Speaker:Friday, we work on a wheel.
Speaker:You're getting stuck three times.
Speaker:If it was your weekend of work, we used
Speaker:to get weekends like
Speaker:every six to seventh week.
Speaker:We had squad eight jobs.
Speaker:You were getting stuck five days a week.
Speaker:I said, nobody can
Speaker:work that kind of hours.
Speaker:You know, your wife, you know, these
Speaker:people, well, you make the money.
Speaker:Well, your wife says, hey, I
Speaker:got three young kids at home.
Speaker:They drive me crazy.
Speaker:If you don't come home, you ain't gonna
Speaker:have a home to come to.
Speaker:The important thing is now, look at you.
Speaker:You still look good.
Speaker:You look healthy.
Speaker:You made it.
Speaker:You survived.
Speaker:And here we are talking to
Speaker:you, wrapping this up today.
Speaker:Give me one second.
Speaker:And I promise I took a police course when
Speaker:I was a rookie, how to survival, how to
Speaker:survive high risk patrol.
Speaker:Best police course,
Speaker:psychologists, cops, no department BS.
Speaker:We're not here to say
Speaker:you got a good chief.
Speaker:You'll have a good job, a good place.
Speaker:You got a bad chief.
Speaker:You'd have a bad job.
Speaker:That's all we're gonna talk about.
Speaker:And the psychologist, I don't know who
Speaker:this man was, but he saved my life.
Speaker:He said, you're gonna
Speaker:see tragic horrific things.
Speaker:You're gonna have to deal with them.
Speaker:If you don't, it's like a volcano.
Speaker:It's brewing.
Speaker:And one day when you don't deal with the
Speaker:stress, it just blows.
Speaker:That's why poor cops have affairs.
Speaker:That's why they get divorced.
Speaker:That's why they become alcoholics.
Speaker:That's why they eat.
Speaker:A lot of us are heavy.
Speaker:People have fat lazy cops.
Speaker:No, the stress of the job.
Speaker:And you eat a pizza or a burger.
Speaker:You take that stress away for a minute.
Speaker:It's good.
Speaker:And it relieves the stress.
Speaker:I used to tell them, these departments
Speaker:should have in-service stress
Speaker:training for these officers.
Speaker:We're not weak, we're human.
Speaker:And that's what we used to talk about.
Speaker:If you ever wanted to leave a CO job,
Speaker:your family, my father would say, oh,
Speaker:thank God, I'd never liked
Speaker:you working in that prison.
Speaker:And I went to Attica.
Speaker:He was shot twice in
Speaker:Korea, the shoulder and the hip.
Speaker:And he lived.
Speaker:And he gave me the application.
Speaker:When he heard I was going to Attica, I
Speaker:was 24 years old, he
Speaker:goes, you're going to where?
Speaker:Say, Attica, do you have any ideas on
Speaker:what you're getting into?
Speaker:I think, yeah, I got a pretty good idea.
Speaker:I used to travel the
Speaker:East Coast by myself.
Speaker:I was six foot two, 10, I'm not afraid.
Speaker:And he says, oh God bless you son.
Speaker:You have no idea what
Speaker:you're getting into.
Speaker:And God bless him.
Speaker:That's all.
Speaker:Today and every day.
Speaker:Right on the monitor.
Speaker:The fatherly advice, yeah.
Speaker:Anyway, Rick, let me end by saying this,
Speaker:that after you've described the working
Speaker:conditions and they're
Speaker:not all that favorable,
Speaker:and you're dealing with some tough people
Speaker:behind the walls of a prison facility,
Speaker:but thank God there are some 500,000
Speaker:correctional officers, men and women who
Speaker:are willing to work under those
Speaker:conditions to take the risks that
Speaker:correctional officers have to take and
Speaker:protect the prison population, but really
Speaker:provide security and protection for the
Speaker:rest of society from these criminals who
Speaker:are now serving their
Speaker:time and serving justice.
Speaker:I wanna thank you.
Speaker:I've known you for many years.
Speaker:We haven't had a chance to have this
Speaker:level of discussion.
Speaker:I'm glad we did.
Speaker:But you've really, I think, enlightened a
Speaker:lot of people about what it's like to be
Speaker:a correctional officer, how tough it can
Speaker:be, but also how rewarding.
Speaker:There are obvious benefits and better pay
Speaker:today, certainly
Speaker:better compensation overall,
Speaker:and a much better working condition than
Speaker:they had back in September of 1971 when
Speaker:the deadliest prison riot
Speaker:in American history occurred.
Speaker:So thank you for sharing that story.
Speaker:Yes, sir.
Speaker:And I wanna end the show simply thanking
Speaker:our audience, reminding you that Heroes
Speaker:Behind the Badge, our podcast,
Speaker:is on YouTube.
Speaker:You can subscribe, you can like, you can
Speaker:comment on what you heard today.
Speaker:And please do.
Speaker:That helps, obviously, our ratings and
Speaker:increases our audience, but it also means
Speaker:that you're gonna be the first to know of
Speaker:the next episode that comes out.
Speaker:And we do this at least twice a month.
Speaker:So I encourage you to
Speaker:like, subscribe, and comment.
Speaker:And on behalf of Citizens Behind the
Speaker:Badge, which produces this podcast, I
Speaker:wanna thank our guest, Rick Harcrow, my
Speaker:co-host, Bill Erfurth.
Speaker:And until next time, we'll see you then.
Speaker:(Upbeat Music)
