Episode 71

full
Published on:

22nd Sep 2026

Bill Bratton — Broken Windows, Stop-and-Frisk, and the Defund Years | Part 1

Bill Bratton is the only person ever to have led both the New York City Police Department and the Los Angeles Police Department. He joined the Boston Police Department in 1970 at twenty-three, badge 1190, and over the next five decades he ran six agencies, presided over the largest crime decline in modern American history, and became the most identifiable advocate for a philosophy of policing that is still argued about today. He now chairs the Homeland Security Advisory Council.

He does not open this conversation by defending the profession. Asked what he would warn his younger self about, he says expectations — and then describes the department he actually joined as one with a lot of corruption, a lot of racism, some degree of brutality and a lot of incompetence. That candor sets the terms for everything after it.

The centerpiece of Part 1 is broken windows, explained by the person who was living it before it had a name. In 1978, four years before Kelling and Wilson published their article, Bratton was running community meetings four nights a week in Boston's Back Bay and finding that residents cared less about serious crime than about the disorder they walked past every day. He connects that directly to stop-question-frisk, which he defends without qualification while insisting on the five conditions that keep it from going wrong: policies, procedures, guidelines, training, supervision and accountability. Along the way he recounts the 9/11 intelligence failure, the two federal agencies that were forbidden by law from speaking to each other, and a working relationship with Rudy Giuliani that he compares to a Rubik's Cube.

The last stretch is the hardest. Six years after George Floyd, Bratton calls the defund movement one of the stupidest ever inflicted on American policing, and he is specific about the cost — officers who left early, and a generation that never applied, because they had been shown a version of the job in which police are oppressors rather than guardians.

In Part 2, the compliment he ranks above every medal he was given, a night in 1994 that has stayed with him for thirty-two years, and what the work took from him and his family.

New episodes drop one Tuesday and Thursdays. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

Learn more at https://heroesbehindthebadge.com.

Transcript
Bill Bratton:

The d- defund movement was one of the

Bill Bratton:

stupidest movements that was ever precipitated and

Bill Bratton:

inflicted upon American policing.

Paul Boomer:

That is Bill Bratton, the only person ever to run both

Paul Boomer:

the NYPD and the LAPD, and the man most responsible for the

Paul Boomer:

crime turnaround of the 1990s.

Paul Boomer:

He got to that conclusion after 50 years and six departments.

Dennis Collins:

Bill Bratton's name is synonymous with policing.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, he's often been called America's top cop.

Dennis Collins:

The lasting changes Bill made in America's law enforcement are

Dennis Collins:

n- nothing short of legendary.

Dennis Collins:

Today, I'm interested in learning about how policing

Dennis Collins:

changed Bill Bratton.

Dennis Collins:

What has he learned about power, trust, people, and himself?

Dennis Collins:

And what did he have to learn the hard way?

Dennis Collins:

Bill, what an honor and a pleasure to welcome you to

Dennis Collins:

Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

We are delighted you're here.

Dennis Collins:

Thanks for joining us.

Bill Bratton:

Well, it's great to be with the two of you today.

Bill Bratton:

Thank you.

Dennis Collins:

After more than 50 years in law enforcement,

Dennis Collins:

starting way back, 23-year-old Boston cop, 1970, I even got

Dennis Collins:

the badge number, badge 1190.

Dennis Collins:

Very good.

Dennis Collins:

If you could, if you could go back-

Bill Bratton:

I still have the original badge.

Bill Bratton:

It reads Patrolman.

Dennis Collins:

Patrolman.

Bill Bratton:

That's

Dennis Collins:

where

Bill Bratton:

it all- That's re- that's reflective

Bill Bratton:

of one of the changes.

Bill Bratton:

It's no longer patrolman, it's police officer.

Bill Bratton:

Dennis Collins: Police officer, yeah.

Bill Bratton:

If you could go back to your younger self, what would you

Bill Bratton:

warn your younger self about?

Bill Bratton:

Expectations.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, the idea, uh, I grew up wanting to be a cop, uh, from

Bill Bratton:

my earliest memory, and, uh, thankfully that happened in

Bill Bratton:

1970, just back from Vietnam War.

Bill Bratton:

Boston Police Department was expanding.

Bill Bratton:

A new union had formed and had demanded two-man cars-

Bill Bratton:

Yeah … and the mayor at the time went along with that.

Bill Bratton:

And, um, the expectations I had of the profession had been shaped by

Bill Bratton:

the 1950s, early '60s television.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, Dragnet, Jack Webb, Badge 714.

Dennis Collins:

714, yep.

Bill Bratton:

Car 54, Where Are You?,

Bill Bratton:

Toody and Muldoon.

Bill Bratton:

Uh-

Dennis Collins:

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Bill Bratton:

It was nine to

Dennis Collins:

Miller.

Dennis Collins:

Yep.

Bill Bratton:

On the drama side, you had Naked City,

Bill Bratton:

and then moving forward into the '70s, you had Police

Bill Bratton:

Woman, you had Police Story.

Bill Bratton:

Police Story is still one of my favorite.

Bill Bratton:

I think that, uh, kinda modeled after the Joseph

Bill Bratton:

Wambaugh series of books of the, uh, '60s and '70s, was

Bill Bratton:

a very accurate depiction of policing at that time.

Craig Floyd:

Right.

Bill Bratton:

So expectations, uh, of a, coming into a profession,

Bill Bratton:

uh, what I came into in the Boston Police Department, I would

Bill Bratton:

not describe as a profession.

Bill Bratton:

It was a, uh, a tough police department, a tough environment.

Bill Bratton:

Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

A lot of corruption, a lot of racism-

Dennis Collins:

Mm

Bill Bratton:

some degree of brutality, a lot of incompetence.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, and the realism that the television shows of the '80s,

Bill Bratton:

'90s, Hill Street Blues, some of the others, began to depict that

Bill Bratton:

was missing from the Dragnet, uh, Adam-12 series of the '50s and

Bill Bratton:

'60s, um- It took television and the movies a while to catch up

Bill Bratton:

to the realism of policing- Right

Bill Bratton:

in the '70s.

Bill Bratton:

Thankfully, that has changed dramatically,

Bill Bratton:

uh, over the 50 years

Dennis Collins:

I've been- So what, what, uh… You

Dennis Collins:

say your expectations.

Dennis Collins:

That's, that's an interesting… What, what, uh, how have

Dennis Collins:

the expectations of policing changed, uh, in the time since

Dennis Collins:

1970 when you first started?

Bill Bratton:

Well, I, I think we're in a period of

Bill Bratton:

time, unfortunately, coming out of the era of the,

Bill Bratton:

uh, George Floyd murder-

Dennis Collins:

Yeah

Bill Bratton:

uh, some of the turmoil around the Ferguson,

Bill Bratton:

uh, uh, uh, shooting earlier than that, that, um, even while

Bill Bratton:

we had made phenomenal gains, particularly in the '90s in the

Bill Bratton:

embrace of community policing, the concept of partnership,

Bill Bratton:

problem-solving, and prevention, the three Ps, uh, a movement that

Bill Bratton:

I was one of the leaders of, Chuck Ramsey and others, uh, we really

Bill Bratton:

had begun to draw police much closer and more intimately into

Bill Bratton:

the communities we were serving, particularly minority communities.

Bill Bratton:

Um, particularly coming out of the turmoil, the

Bill Bratton:

race riots of the '60s.

Bill Bratton:

Boston, uh, my first 10 years of policing were all about

Bill Bratton:

desegregation of public schools, public housing, and the- Right,

Bill Bratton:

right … tremendous racial turmoil, uh, being the, the man

Bill Bratton:

in the middle, if you will, law enforcement against the, the

Bill Bratton:

angry mobs on the one side and the, uh, the minorities on the

Bill Bratton:

other side just trying to get what was, uh, uh, due them in

Bill Bratton:

terms of under our Constitution.

Bill Bratton:

But, uh- Yeah … the last 10 years in policing have been one

Bill Bratton:

of struggle, uh, to keep that bond between police and community, and

Bill Bratton:

it's been very strained and very stressed and, um, remains that

Bill Bratton:

way at the moment unfortunately.

Dennis Collins:

Why do you think that is?

Dennis Collins:

I'm sure y- y- you've had, uh, quite a seat, uh, over the last

Dennis Collins:

50 years in law enforcement.

Dennis Collins:

What do you think's going on?

Dennis Collins:

Why is that so difficult?

Bill Bratton:

Well, what's interesting, in the '90s, we

Bill Bratton:

had the Rodney King beating.

Bill Bratton:

First time there'd been a televised, widely broadcast, uh,

Bill Bratton:

depiction of police brutality, the subsequent trials, uh,

Bill Bratton:

the acquittal, the riots.

Bill Bratton:

But out of that came, and, uh, I was able to play a role in

Bill Bratton:

the sense of, uh, the benefit that came out of that, uh, my

Bill Bratton:

time as chief of police in Los Angeles, followed by Charlie Beck.

Bill Bratton:

Um, my time in New York City in the '90s, embracing

Bill Bratton:

community policing.

Bill Bratton:

We had the, uh, Harvard, uh, uh, Community Policing,

Bill Bratton:

uh, executive sessions that gave policing a, a mission,

Bill Bratton:

a, and gave it strategies.

Bill Bratton:

And we had, uh, great success.

Bill Bratton:

And then of course, plus we also had, uh, funding by the

Bill Bratton:

federal government, the community policing initiatives- Sure

Bill Bratton:

of Bill Clinton.

Bill Bratton:

100,000 new cops, uh, prisons to accommodate the, uh, uh,

Bill Bratton:

taking back, uh, streets from the violence, crime

Bill Bratton:

that was, uh, basically overrunning so many of them.

Bill Bratton:

But the difference between the '90s, '80s, '90s

Bill Bratton:

turnaround was the turnaround out of 2014, Ferguson,

Bill Bratton:

2020, George Floyd-

Dennis Collins:

Yeah

Bill Bratton:

was that in 2026 now, six years after Floyd,

Bill Bratton:

eight, 10 years after Ferguson, uh, we're still struggling

Bill Bratton:

to, uh, regain the trust that we got after the last crises

Bill Bratton:

of Rodney King, and that's because of a number of things.

Bill Bratton:

One, t- terrorism.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, prior to 2001, 9/11, policing was about crime and disorder.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, we didn't do much about terrorism.

Bill Bratton:

But after 9/11, we had to get into terrorism in a big way,

Bill Bratton:

whether you're a 10-person department or a 50,000-person

Bill Bratton:

LAPD, NYPD, excuse me.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, the challenges and the, uh, demands on

Bill Bratton:

policing have expanded exponentially with technology,

Bill Bratton:

social media, internet.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, just think about our world today, the concerns about

Bill Bratton:

drones, the concerns about cyber, the concerns about AI as

Bill Bratton:

we're, as we're sitting here.

Bill Bratton:

The world is changing- much more rapidly, uh, for law

Bill Bratton:

enforcement the challenges than it did in the '80s and '90s, as

Bill Bratton:

formidable as they were back then.

Bill Bratton:

And so going back to the point about expectations, uh, my

Bill Bratton:

expectations were always that police are an essential part

Bill Bratton:

of democracy and that, um, um, we were not fulfilling

Bill Bratton:

it in the '70s and '80s.

Bill Bratton:

The '90s we began to, uh, and at that time I had moved into

Bill Bratton:

leadership roles and I was feeling very good about the profession

Bill Bratton:

that I had not felt so good about in the '70s and '80s.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, at this particular time, um, I'm concerned that

Bill Bratton:

we're struggling once again with all these new challenges,

Bill Bratton:

threats, uh Out of crisis comes opportunity, though.

Bill Bratton:

That- I've always believed that, and God knows we have

Bill Bratton:

no shortage of crises at the moment to, to try to seize-

Bill Bratton:

Yeah … the opportunities.

Dennis Collins:

Pick your crisis, huh?

Bill Bratton:

Well, what, what's today, Wednesday?

Bill Bratton:

Uh- Yeah … basically, today's Wednesday- Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

Hey- … so tomorrow's, tomorrow's gonna be a different set of them.

Dennis Collins:

A different set, for sure.

Dennis Collins:

Well,

Craig Floyd:

I- Hey, Bill, um, let me first say that, uh,

Craig Floyd:

again, thank you for joining us.

Craig Floyd:

Um, but I, I wanted to also, uh, comment for our audience

Craig Floyd:

sake, um, when we were building the National Law Enforcement

Craig Floyd:

Officers Memorial and the National Law Enforcement Museum, um, i-

Craig Floyd:

it was a struggle, all right?

Craig Floyd:

Uh, uh, when we were building the memorial, we didn't…

Craig Floyd:

people didn't know who Craig Floyd was.

Craig Floyd:

I was going around in a three-piece suit asking

Craig Floyd:

people for money and

Bill Bratton:

support.

Bill Bratton:

Three-piece suit guy with a tin cup.

Craig Floyd:

Exactly, and it's like, "He, he wasn't

Craig Floyd:

a cop. What, what's this guy all about?" You know?

Craig Floyd:

And, and that was tough, but… and as you know better than I,

Craig Floyd:

uh, police are, are cynical.

Craig Floyd:

They- you're, you're skeptical, and, um, uh, that, that,

Craig Floyd:

uh, made it difficult.

Craig Floyd:

But, uh, eventually, uh, I was accepted, and the idea of a

Craig Floyd:

national memorial and eventually a national museum, uh, was accepted.

Craig Floyd:

But it was mainly accepted because people like you, people-

Craig Floyd:

leaders in the industry, uh, of law enforcement , um, embraced

Craig Floyd:

it and got behind it and lent their support and reputations.

Craig Floyd:

And I just want our audience to understand, uh, the

Craig Floyd:

relationship you and I have.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, you are one of those great leaders who embraced the concept

Craig Floyd:

of a memorial for law enforcement that's now in Washington, DC,

Craig Floyd:

and a museum, and, and those things would not be there if

Craig Floyd:

not for people like you that, uh, really got behind the, uh,

Craig Floyd:

campaigns and made it happen.

Craig Floyd:

So, uh, let, let me just start with a big thank you for that.

Craig Floyd:

Now-

Bill Bratton:

Th- thank, thank you-

Craig Floyd:

Yeah, go ahead, Bill

Bill Bratton:

thank you for the opportunity to work with you.

Bill Bratton:

Rikki and I, uh, attended any number of, uh, fundraising

Bill Bratton:

events at IACP, Major City Chiefs, with you, uh, looking

Bill Bratton:

at your Target dog, uh, s- uh, standing there beside you.

Bill Bratton:

Yeah, I loved it.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, one of the major sponsors of all that you were trying to

Bill Bratton:

do, uh, Verizon, the company that's m- one of my clients now.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, you were able to gather up, in addition to getting police

Bill Bratton:

leadership and union support for your effort, uh, against great

Bill Bratton:

odds again in the, uh, '80s and '90s when there was a lot of

Bill Bratton:

sentiment against the police because of, um, uh, uh, the

Bill Bratton:

history of the '70s and '80s.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, you were able to turn that around and, uh, and get support,

Bill Bratton:

uh, for that, uh, museum, for the expansion of the memorial.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, you know, so all of us coming into the profession

Bill Bratton:

are associated with it, uh, as we eventually leave it.

Bill Bratton:

Uh- Would like to think that we have a legacy, that there's

Bill Bratton:

something we're leaving behind.

Bill Bratton:

You have an extraordinary legacy in the sense of that museum

Bill Bratton:

and that memorial wall, uh, uh, to feel very good about

Craig Floyd:

And le- let me say, uh, ju- just to, uh,

Craig Floyd:

comment on what you said, Rikki, your wife, was such a

Craig Floyd:

leader in that effort, too.

Craig Floyd:

She, uh, she was such an incredible personality.

Craig Floyd:

She emceed a number of our- Yeah

Craig Floyd:

fundraising events and promotional events, and, uh,

Craig Floyd:

can't thank her enough as well.

Craig Floyd:

But let, let's turn the tables, uh, to some, uh, recent

Craig Floyd:

events that I think, uh, your comments would be important.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, number one, 9/11.

Craig Floyd:

We just, uh, commemorated the 25th anniversary of 9/11, and you're

Craig Floyd:

on the Homeland Advisory Council, um, uh, uh, for this nation of

Craig Floyd:

ours, and your voice and many other leaders like yourself are

Craig Floyd:

helping to keep our homeland safe.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, my question to you first is, how did 9/11 happen?

Craig Floyd:

What, what were the, the, the flaws in the system, if you

Craig Floyd:

will, uh, to allow such terrorism to occur on, on our homeland?

Craig Floyd:

And what have we done, uh, to make it safer?

Craig Floyd:

Uh, and is it safer today than it was, uh, on 9/11 in 2001?

Bill Bratton:

That's a great question.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, uh, and let me respond to it.

Bill Bratton:

The Homeland Security Advisory Council you reference, uh- All the

Bill Bratton:

secretaries at the, uh, national level have advisory councils.

Bill Bratton:

When Homeland Security is created as, uh, w- now one

Bill Bratton:

of the largest agencies in the federal government, and

Bill Bratton:

one of the most impactful on citizens day-to-day in 2002,

Bill Bratton:

2003, that the, uh, council, advisory council was created.

Bill Bratton:

I joined it and was fortunate to serve, uh, with Bill Webster,

Bill Bratton:

who was the first chair of the advisory council for many years,

Bill Bratton:

and then I succeeded him when he stepped down in 22, '23.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, so I had a, uh, a bird's-eye view of, of the

Bill Bratton:

fight against terrorism over that 20-some-odd-year period

Bill Bratton:

of time, coupled with my time in the LAPD, 2002 to 2009,

Bill Bratton:

2014 to 2016 in the NYPD.

Bill Bratton:

I thought my career was over in 1996 when I left the NYPD for the

Bill Bratton:

first time, but the events of 9/11 catapulted me back into policing.

Bill Bratton:

I was desperate to get back into policing 'cause I felt

Bill Bratton:

I had a lot that I could contribute to the turnaround

Bill Bratton:

that policing was going to have to do to face the new challenge.

Bill Bratton:

Crime and disorder, we had faced it in the '90s

Bill Bratton:

and we were winning.

Bill Bratton:

Overall crime in the US was down by 40%.

Bill Bratton:

Cities like New York, 70, 80%.

Bill Bratton:

We finally, with CompStat processes, had understood,

Bill Bratton:

uh, that the focus of policing had to be on the prevention of

Bill Bratton:

crime, not just responding to it.

Dennis Collins:

Right.

Bill Bratton:

And the problem with, um, um, uh, one of the,

Bill Bratton:

uh, catalysts for the creation of 9/11, the horrific events of

Bill Bratton:

that day, was that idea of being focused more on response rather

Bill Bratton:

than prevention, that we were really not geared up, either

Bill Bratton:

at the federal level or the state and local level certainly,

Bill Bratton:

to try to prevent terrorism.

Bill Bratton:

We were gearing up so much for the response to it after the fact.

Bill Bratton:

And an essential component of success in dealing with crime

Bill Bratton:

and disorder in the '90s, and now terrorism, crime, and disorder

Bill Bratton:

in the 21st century, is the essentiality of collaboration.

Bill Bratton:

And the collaboration between state, local, and feds on

Bill Bratton:

terrorism didn't exist-

Craig Floyd:

Mm

Bill Bratton:

before 9/11.

Bill Bratton:

Interesting.

Bill Bratton:

Collaboration at the federal level, the multiple agencies

Bill Bratton:

that each had responsibility for terrorist-related

Bill Bratton:

responsibilities, uh, by law they weren't even allowed

Bill Bratton:

to talk with each other.

Bill Bratton:

CIA and FBI could not share information.

Bill Bratton:

FBI could focus nationally, CIA, internationally.

Bill Bratton:

That changed after 9/11.

Bill Bratton:

After 9/11, the laws were created requiring that they collaborate,

Bill Bratton:

and we now have, what, 50 to 60 fusion centers around the country

Bill Bratton:

with fed, state, and local.

Bill Bratton:

We gather together to exchange information.

Bill Bratton:

So the major change after 9/11 was, one, the requirement

Bill Bratton:

and necessity to collaborate.

Bill Bratton:

It took a lot of fighting, uh, local chiefs, myself included,

Bill Bratton:

Chuck Ramsey and others, to convince the federal government,

Bill Bratton:

"You gotta let us into the room," because they were still, even

Bill Bratton:

after 9/11, they wanted to kinda do it on their own, and to not

Bill Bratton:

use the 800,000 eyes and ears of, uh, American policing was crazy.

Bill Bratton:

So we finally get into the room and have been benefiting from it.

Bill Bratton:

What we're also benefiting from, uh, and this is a two-sided coin,

Bill Bratton:

is the, uh, advent of technology and social media, the internet,

Bill Bratton:

so integral to effectively, uh, preventing crime and terrorism.

Bill Bratton:

But at the same time, even while we- we're using that technology,

Bill Bratton:

the criminals are using it.

Bill Bratton:

They're as, as creative as we are, uh, in terms of how they

Bill Bratton:

use it, and they certainly, uh, benefited them in the,

Bill Bratton:

uh, the terrorist activities.

Bill Bratton:

Al-Qaeda used it minimally.

Bill Bratton:

ISIS embraced it, and ISIS used it to inspire, to train, to recruit.

Bill Bratton:

And then when they basically went to encryption,

Bill Bratton:

they really blindsided, uh, us for a long time.

Bill Bratton:

So going forward into the 21st century, collaboration

Bill Bratton:

is the essentiality.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, continue to focus on prevention, measure our success

Bill Bratton:

by what we're preventing rather than how well we're responding.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, we're also, uh, basically, um, the idea is, um,

Bill Bratton:

to always be learning, always be training, uh, because the

Bill Bratton:

world is changing constantly.

Bill Bratton:

Look at AI.

Bill Bratton:

AI, just in the last couple years … Two years ago,

Bill Bratton:

who the hell would've been able to explain what AI was?

Bill Bratton:

And re- rem- remember, uh, basically in 2006, 2007, when

Bill Bratton:

Twitter came on the scene, who the hell knew what Twitter was,

Bill Bratton:

or the cloud, for that matter?

Bill Bratton:

The

Craig Floyd:

cloud.

Bill Bratton:

When I first heard about the cloud, I said,

Bill Bratton:

"What are you talking about?

Bill Bratton:

It's gonna rain?" And

Craig Floyd:

then- That's true

Bill Bratton:

just think of all the things that

Bill Bratton:

our world is impacted by.

Bill Bratton:

The war in Ukraine right now, the, uh, that's changing

Bill Bratton:

warfare, uh, around the issue of drones and policing, and

Bill Bratton:

within five years, every police department in America's

Bill Bratton:

gonna be using drones more than we'll be, uh- Patrol cars

Bill Bratton:

yes.

Craig Floyd:

That's a great innovation.

Craig Floyd:

A lot already are, yeah.

Craig Floyd:

I'm curious, where, where were you on 9/11?

Bill Bratton:

9/11, I was in the private sector.

Bill Bratton:

I was working with the Kroll company in New York.

Bill Bratton:

I had, uh, actually sharing offices with the late, great

Bill Bratton:

Jerry Hauer, who was the first, uh, uh, commissioner of emergency

Bill Bratton:

management in New York City.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, and Jerry, an extraordinary individual,

Bill Bratton:

passed away recently with 9/11 cancer-related, uh, illnesses.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, I felt so helpless on that day, uh, in my office,

Bill Bratton:

basically getting deluged with calls from clients, many of

Bill Bratton:

whom were in the Wall Street area, about, you know, w-

Bill Bratton:

what's going on, or what do we need to do, et cetera.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, the frustration of wanting to be there,

Bill Bratton:

that it is this idea of, of, um… Public safety has

Bill Bratton:

always been my, my thing.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, the public s- private sector, make a very good living in it,

Bill Bratton:

have been very successful in it, but my heart and soul has been,

Bill Bratton:

going back to childhood, has been public safety, policing.

Bill Bratton:

And not just public safety, but leadership in public safety.

Bill Bratton:

Um, uh, I'm a leader.

Bill Bratton:

I, I, I like leading.

Bill Bratton:

I like dealing with crises.

Bill Bratton:

I like assembling Super Bowl-type teams to take on challenges.

Bill Bratton:

And I missed it that day, this idea of just

Bill Bratton:

advising and consulting.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, I'm a good advisor.

Bill Bratton:

I'm a good consultant.

Bill Bratton:

I get paid a lot of money to do that.

Bill Bratton:

But, uh, I actually like leading and making decisions,

Bill Bratton:

like creating initiatives.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, 9/11 became the catalyst to get back into policing.

Bill Bratton:

I lucked out that Kroll, at that time, had bid on the

Bill Bratton:

federal monitorship of the LAPD.

Bill Bratton:

Mm. So right after 9/11, for the next year, I was part of the

Bill Bratton:

monitorship team in the LAPD, embedded in it, learning about it.

Bill Bratton:

And so when the chief's job opened up, I applied for it.

Bill Bratton:

I campaigned for it.

Bill Bratton:

I would've thought I would've been one of the front, uh, f-

Bill Bratton:

front runner candidates for that position with my experience in

Bill Bratton:

New York, but they didn't want me.

Bill Bratton:

West Coast doesn't like East Coast.

Dennis Collins:

Uh-huh.

Bill Bratton:

Yep.

Bill Bratton:

I was pretty much told, uh, "Don't apply because

Bill Bratton:

you're not gonna get it."

Bill Bratton:

Fortunately, I had the backing of the mayor at that

Bill Bratton:

time, Mayor Jim Hahn, and others, and I, I campaigned.

Bill Bratton:

I'm, I'm not afr- ashamed to admit I lobbied for it, and,

Bill Bratton:

uh, I worked very hard to get it, and thankfully, I got it.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Dennis Collins:

Let me, uh, let me, uh, rewind just a minute because I think

Dennis Collins:

you first came, at least to my attention, maybe to the attention

Dennis Collins:

of most people in the US, when you got the first New York job, and

Dennis Collins:

that was with Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

Dennis Collins:

And I think the question that I've always wanted to ask somebody,

Dennis Collins:

and I've never had the chance until now, what was it like

Dennis Collins:

working with Mayor Giuliani?

Bill Bratton:

He was an inter- was and is an interesting character.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, smart as a whip, uh, one of the hardest working people

Bill Bratton:

I've ever, uh, uh, experienced working with and working for.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, a multi- multifaceted personality.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, can be funny, can be, um, engaging, can be vicious, can

Bill Bratton:

be mean- … can be spiteful.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, he, he's a Rubik's Cube that you know- Exactly … in

Bill Bratton:

terms of, you know, you n- never quite knew which side of

Bill Bratton:

the cube you were gonna get.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah, from day to day probably, huh?

Bill Bratton:

At the same time, he and I, uh, I'd, I'd

Bill Bratton:

like to think very different personalities, but very similar

Bill Bratton:

management, uh, focus, the idea that, uh, wanting very much to

Bill Bratton:

be leaders who create change.

Bill Bratton:

"To create change, you must become the change,"

Bill Bratton:

Mahatma Gandhi's expression.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, he was that type of leader.

Bill Bratton:

He, he strongly believed in the changes he wanted to

Bill Bratton:

make in New York based on his law enforcement career.

Bill Bratton:

I strongly believed in what I could do based on

Bill Bratton:

my law enforcement career.

Bill Bratton:

His was federal, mine was local.

Bill Bratton:

I think the combination of the two together, uh, I, uh,

Bill Bratton:

it's, it's ego on my part to say this, but, uh, the

Bill Bratton:

turnaround in New York would not have happened without me.

Bill Bratton:

The turnaround in New York would not have happened without him.

Bill Bratton:

Right.

Bill Bratton:

And was, uh, in some respects we were in a three-legged race

Bill Bratton:

together, and eventually the ties that bound became un- unbound,

Bill Bratton:

and we went our separate ways.

Bill Bratton:

But we will forever be, uh, uh… Our legacy will be a shared legacy

Bill Bratton:

of beginning the crime turnaround in New York and accelerating

Bill Bratton:

the crime turnaround in America.

Dennis Collins:

So that was an interesting- So it,

Dennis Collins:

it- … story about, uh, how, how that all happened.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, you were, uh, interviewed by Time Magazine, I

Dennis Collins:

believe, wasn't it?

Dennis Collins:

You were given a cover photo on Time Magazine.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, how did that play with the boss?

Bill Bratton:

Not well.

Bill Bratton:

Let me give you a little background.

Bill Bratton:

I write about this in two of my books that, uh- Yes … um,

Bill Bratton:

lead to the story on that.

Bill Bratton:

Uh-

Bill Bratton:

I was already on the way out in December of 1993, excuse

Bill Bratton:

me, 1995 going into '96.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, be- being pushed out by Giuliani, death

Bill Bratton:

by a thousand knives.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

Um, uh, for a variety of reasons that say that

Bill Bratton:

our mutual success, crime down dramatically, uh, and getting a

Bill Bratton:

lot of attention, including Time Magazine in that, uh, uh, edition

Bill Bratton:

wanting to do a story about crime, the ma- major turnaround

Bill Bratton:

in the country and in New York, and New York being the catalyst

Bill Bratton:

of so much of it in the country.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, the editor of that particular piece approached me

Bill Bratton:

about wanting to do the story, and, uh, the photo that they

Bill Bratton:

were going to put on the cover, uh, there was a war going on

Bill Bratton:

at that time in Bosnia, I think it was, and depending what was

Bill Bratton:

gonna happen with that war that day, might've been a cover story

Bill Bratton:

about Bosnia or it could be a cover story about New York.

Dennis Collins:

Right.

Bill Bratton:

So they, they wanted to take a picture to have just

Bill Bratton:

in case, and they approached me and said, uh, you know, uh, "We

Bill Bratton:

can do it with just you or we can see if the mayor's available."

Bill Bratton:

And to be very frank with you, I felt if the mayor had been

Bill Bratton:

asked, uh, it e- either would not have happened or it would've

Bill Bratton:

happened with just him and not me.

Paul Boomer:

Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

And so I, um, uh, suggested to the editor, uh, who

Bill Bratton:

did not like Rudy anyway, he was a former New York reporter who

Bill Bratton:

had, uh, crossed paths with him.

Bill Bratton:

And I suggested, "Well, I'll, I'll be happy to do it myself,"

Bill Bratton:

understanding fully- The temperament of that mayor about

Bill Bratton:

that betrayal, if you will, that being on Time Magazine.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh- Yeah, really … ironically, the, when it came out,

Bill Bratton:

there was a major snowstorm in New York, so it didn't get out onto

Bill Bratton:

the streets of New York initially.

Bill Bratton:

It got out into the rest of the country.

Bill Bratton:

Mm. And this was w- largely before the internet in terms of

Bill Bratton:

where so many of these magazines are now on the internet, so the

Bill Bratton:

picture was slow to roll out.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, when it did come out, uh-

Dennis Collins:

Yeah

Bill Bratton:

when the mayor was asked about it at the first

Bill Bratton:

press conference where it had become available, uh, he made

Bill Bratton:

a comment, I think the comment was, I was wearing a trench

Bill Bratton:

coat, a Burberry trench coat, and he s- and he said, uh, they

Bill Bratton:

were, he was asked his reaction to it, he said, "Nice coat."

Dennis Collins:

I guess that's, uh, appropriate, huh?

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

And, and but, uh- Yeah … two

Bill Bratton:

months later I was gone.

Bill Bratton:

When I went over to see him at City Hall, he gave

Bill Bratton:

me a, a key to the city.

Bill Bratton:

Wow.

Bill Bratton:

Wow.

Bill Bratton:

At the press conference, and he gave me a stack of 25 copies

Bill Bratton:

of the New York Time Magazine.

Bill Bratton:

Wow.

Bill Bratton:

Of course, he didn't… I had, I had my, uh-

Dennis Collins:

That was his humorous side maybe, huh?

Bill Bratton:

That was his humorous side in a sense- … but

Bill Bratton:

meanwhile, it was another knife in a thousand cuts.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah, really.

Dennis Collins:

Goodness.

Bill Bratton:

A year or so later, well, a couple years later, I'm

Bill Bratton:

chief of police in Los Angeles.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

He's now announced he's running for president,

Bill Bratton:

and he's in LA fundraising, and he wanted to come by and

Bill Bratton:

see me, because he was gonna be very concerned about my being

Bill Bratton:

approached about what I thought about him running for president.

Dennis Collins:

Right.

Bill Bratton:

So he was looking to kind of mend

Bill Bratton:

fences, and I'm not somebody who ever carries a grudge.

Bill Bratton:

There's not a person I've ever met that I would not

Bill Bratton:

acknowledge or say hello to if they come up to me.

Bill Bratton:

And so I still remember Rudy walking down the long

Bill Bratton:

hallway to my office at LA Police Headquarters, and then

Bill Bratton:

bringing him into my office, floored with memorabilia.

Bill Bratton:

Kind of looks like the backdrop in your office there in this picture,

Bill Bratton:

and Craig's, that- And among the memorabilia was, uh, a picture

Bill Bratton:

of Rudy giving me the key to the city and the key to the city.

Bill Bratton:

And Rudy says, "Oh, I remember giving you that."

Bill Bratton:

And I said, "Yeah, but you also remember the next day

Bill Bratton:

he changed all the locks?"

Bill Bratton:

And he just, he just roared with laughter at that one.

Bill Bratton:

One, one of my favorite memories.

Craig Floyd:

Do you have any relationship with him these days?

Craig Floyd:

Any interaction?

Bill Bratton:

No, the last time, uh, the mayor and I were

Bill Bratton:

together, I had invited him to breakfast at the Harvard

Bill Bratton:

Club, and the breakfast was scheduled for an hour.

Bill Bratton:

We ended up spending two and a half hours together- Yeah

Bill Bratton:

just kind of recollection.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, this would've been a number of years ago

Bill Bratton:

before he got, uh, teamed up heavily with, uh, Trump.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, his staff was constantly coming in because he was…

Bill Bratton:

We- it was an hou- scheduled for an hour, and they were two

Bill Bratton:

and a half hours later, we're still there shooting the breeze.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, he was obviously enjoying the walk down memory lane.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, that was really the last time, uh, I've seen him in

Bill Bratton:

person was that breakfast, and that was- Mm … oh, has to be

Bill Bratton:

seven, eight, nine years ago.

Bill Bratton:

Yeah.

Craig Floyd:

Uh, and one, one thing that we need to talk

Craig Floyd:

about, if you talk about your relationship, uh, with Giuliani

Craig Floyd:

in those days as commissioner, is, uh, broken windows.

Craig Floyd:

All right?

Craig Floyd:

That was a key philosophy of policing that really, I think,

Craig Floyd:

changed everything in terms of crime in New York City and, and

Craig Floyd:

around the country with those departments that followed suit.

Craig Floyd:

Um, explain the, the theory behind broken windows, why it

Craig Floyd:

was successful in your view, and, uh, is it something that we

Craig Floyd:

should be continuing to do today?

Bill Bratton:

Certainly it's something we should be discussing.

Bill Bratton:

And let me give you a, a, a background synopsis on it.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, I was first exposed to it at, uh, as a young sergeant.

Bill Bratton:

I'd been invited up to the Police Commissioner Bob

Bill Bratton:

diGrazia's office in Boston, who was entertaining a visiting,

Bill Bratton:

um, uh, c- commissioner from the Metropolitan Police

Bill Bratton:

in London, uh, Sir Mark.

Bill Bratton:

And, uh, at that meeting, he distributed, uh, a copy

Bill Bratton:

of Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles of Policing,

Bill Bratton:

which has become my Bible.

Bill Bratton:

It's the, it's the platform and the planks that I stand on.

Bill Bratton:

The first of those, uh, nine principles was, "The basic mission

Bill Bratton:

for which the police exists is to prevent crime and disorder."

Bill Bratton:

Five most important words in policing, 'cause up

Bill Bratton:

until 9/11, that was it.

Bill Bratton:

Then 9/11 terrorism expanded the accordion, if you will.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, shortly thereafter, I was appointed to lead a

Bill Bratton:

neighborhood policing initiative in the Back Bay area of the

Bill Bratton:

city of Boston, and one of the first community policing

Bill Bratton:

initiatives in the country.

Bill Bratton:

And as I was organizing community meetings four nights a week,

Bill Bratton:

bringing my sector cops to the meetings, et cetera, that, uh, had

Bill Bratton:

several young women working with me who were funded by, uh, many of

Bill Bratton:

the institutions in that area who were concerned with the growing

Bill Bratton:

crime and disorder in the area.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, and at the end of the night, they would tally

Bill Bratton:

up all the questions that were asked by the audience.

Bill Bratton:

I went over the crime statistics.

Bill Bratton:

"Here's what's going on in your neighborhood." But we found

Bill Bratton:

that the vast majority of what they were concerned with was

Bill Bratton:

not the serious crime, but the disorder, the prostitutes, the

Bill Bratton:

gang on the corner, the public drinking, the growing homeless

Bill Bratton:

population, particularly the mentally ill that were being let

Bill Bratton:

out of the mental institutions by the hundreds of thousands.

Bill Bratton:

And so early on- 1978, four years before Kelling and Wilson's

Bill Bratton:

famous Broken Windows article in The Atlantic, I was living

Bill Bratton:

Broken Windows, understanding the Sir Robert Peel emphasis

Bill Bratton:

on you have to deal with crime and disorder, because what is

Bill Bratton:

it that people see every day?

Bill Bratton:

Disorder.

Bill Bratton:

Yeah.

Bill Bratton:

Most people, even in the most crime-ridden city in New York

Bill Bratton:

in the 1990s, one out of 10 were the victims of serious crime.

Bill Bratton:

The other nine were victims of the disorder that they were seeing.

Bill Bratton:

Yet in the '70s and '80s, for a variety of reasons, one

Bill Bratton:

of it's shortage of police officers, but also shortage

Bill Bratton:

of leadership vision, we were focused entirely on responding

Bill Bratton:

to 911 calls and serious crime.

Bill Bratton:

We were being judged by, uh, crime rates going up

Bill Bratton:

and down without paying much attention and not having many

Bill Bratton:

resources focused on disorder.

Bill Bratton:

I have come to strongly believe, Craig, that, uh, to

Bill Bratton:

be successful, and I think I've proven this in every assignment

Bill Bratton:

I've ever had, you have to focus like a doctor feeling-

Bill Bratton:

dealing with a serious illness.

Bill Bratton:

He also needs to understand everything else that's going

Bill Bratton:

on in your body, because some of those other minor things, if

Bill Bratton:

not treated, are gonna prevent you from dealing successfully

Bill Bratton:

with the major illness.

Bill Bratton:

So the idea I've embraced throughout my career, starting

Bill Bratton:

early in my career, was this belief that you had to

Bill Bratton:

do both at the same time.

Bill Bratton:

And so I did that in the '80s in the three police

Bill Bratton:

departments I led here.

Bill Bratton:

Did it in 1990 when I went to New York to take

Bill Bratton:

over the transit police.

Bill Bratton:

Focus on much more disorder than crime in the subway, but people

Bill Bratton:

felt there was much more crime, not really fully understanding

Bill Bratton:

that what's creating their fear was all the disorder.

Bill Bratton:

So, uh, by successfully reducing crime and disorder

Bill Bratton:

by working on both, Giuliani noticed as he was running for

Bill Bratton:

mayor for the second time.

Bill Bratton:

He lost the first time to Dave Dinkins.

Bill Bratton:

And I still remember meeting with him and George Kelling,

Bill Bratton:

uh, who he wanted to talk with us about how did you

Bill Bratton:

get crime down in the subway?

Bill Bratton:

And we talked about crime and disorder, broken windows,

Bill Bratton:

and he embraced that.

Bill Bratton:

So when we came in as his first commissioner, myself with

Bill Bratton:

Kelling as one of my advisors, he wholeheartedly supported

Bill Bratton:

going after the disorder, the squeegee pests, the prostitution,

Bill Bratton:

the drug dealing. And, uh, it has been my mantra, my nine

Bill Bratton:

principles of policing, my belief that you have to, uh, deal with

Bill Bratton:

broken windows simultaneously.

Bill Bratton:

And third area that has been co- kind of conflated with it

Bill Bratton:

in the last 10 years is this attempt on the part of the,

Bill Bratton:

the left, if you will, the p- political philosophy to the left,

Bill Bratton:

the ultra left, trying to tie broken windows, quality-of-life

Bill Bratton:

policing in with the controversy around stop, question, and frisk.

Dennis Collins:

Mm-hmm.

Bill Bratton:

Stop, question, and frisk, the

Bill Bratton:

essential tool of policing.

Bill Bratton:

How do you function if you don't have the authority to

Bill Bratton:

stop and question someone?

Dennis Collins:

Really?

Bill Bratton:

Yet I, I go crazy when I see a chief of

Bill Bratton:

police saying, "We don't do stop, question, and frisk."

Bill Bratton:

Well, there, that's why your crime is up so, so high.

Bill Bratton:

You can't police without it.

Bill Bratton:

My first class in the police academy in 1970 was the

Bill Bratton:

recently 1968 Terry versus Ohio stop, question, and frisk

Bill Bratton:

constitutional guidelines.

Bill Bratton:

Well, what's going on now, and this, this is a controversy

Bill Bratton:

that I'm right in the middle of because I'm a staunch defender

Bill Bratton:

of broken windows, staunch defender of stop, question,

Bill Bratton:

and frisk, in every instance, though, you have to have policies,

Bill Bratton:

procedures, guidelines, training, supervision, and accountability.

Bill Bratton:

If you don't have those five things, then effectively you're

Bill Bratton:

gonna get to trouble 'cause your cops are gonna be out of control.

Bill Bratton:

But why is so important related to quality

Bill Bratton:

of life, and let me close with this, the idea is that they're

Bill Bratton:

trying to put the two together.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, but you c- the essentiality is what do people

Bill Bratton:

want you to deal with?

Bill Bratton:

The broken windows.

Bill Bratton:

How do you deal with that?

Bill Bratton:

With stop, question, and frisk.

Bill Bratton:

You see something happening, somebody's reporting something

Bill Bratton:

happening, or your police training indicates that

Bill Bratton:

something is going to happen.

Bill Bratton:

And so we're in a, um, a very interesting debate nationally

Bill Bratton:

at the moment, and something that I'm, I'm basically, I

Bill Bratton:

get up on my high horse and my pedestal and aggressively push

Bill Bratton:

back, uh, against those that are trying to commingle the

Bill Bratton:

two together in a negative way.

Dennis Collins:

Interesting

Craig Floyd:

And I, I think one of the things that, um, that

Craig Floyd:

the, uh, critics would say is that somehow this policy is,

Craig Floyd:

um, biased against minorities.

Craig Floyd:

And I just wanna throw in a statistic that I often cite,

Craig Floyd:

uh, that the Department of Justice tracks the number

Craig Floyd:

of police-initiated stops.

Craig Floyd:

All right?

Craig Floyd:

Uh, that's traffic stops, that's pedestrian stops,

Craig Floyd:

stop, uh, question and frisk, as you point out.

Craig Floyd:

And, and it turns out that 12% of the adult white population

Craig Floyd:

are stopped every year by police, 11% of the Black population, and

Craig Floyd:

10% of the Hispanic population.

Craig Floyd:

The bottom line is there is no statistical difference

Craig Floyd:

when it comes to policing, uh, in terms of stopping people.

Craig Floyd:

And, uh, I, I, I have to use that statistic to just counter

Craig Floyd:

everyone that tries to, uh, say that police are somehow

Craig Floyd:

racist, that they're targeting Blacks, targeting Hispanics.

Craig Floyd:

It's not the case at all when you look at the hard data.

Craig Floyd:

So, uh, a very important-

Bill Bratton:

One caveat with that though, uh, Craig, and you

Bill Bratton:

can appreciate this, all your-

Craig Floyd:

Yeah

Bill Bratton:

dealing with policing.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, the unfortunate reality is that the majority of serious crime

Bill Bratton:

in this country, uh, the majority of disorderly behavior, when I

Bill Bratton:

talk about the street conditions of prostitutions, gaming, drug

Bill Bratton:

dealing, uh, unfortunately happens in minority communities.

Bill Bratton:

Um, and particularly poor minority communities, which

Bill Bratton:

then police leaders. That's where you assign your personnel.

Bill Bratton:

You basically, like a doctor, a doctor, if you're suffering

Bill Bratton:

from cancer, is gonna treat where the cancer's occurring.

Bill Bratton:

He's not gonna put the radiation and the chemo on

Bill Bratton:

another part of your body.

Bill Bratton:

And so we effectively, uh, t-taking large proportions

Bill Bratton:

of our police personnel and moving them into those, uh,

Bill Bratton:

neighborhoods, if you will, uh, to deal with disorder.

Bill Bratton:

So that creates a much more confrontational, uh,

Bill Bratton:

uh, experience, and that's where the training comes

Bill Bratton:

in, that you have to police constitutionally, legally.

Bill Bratton:

You have to p-police compassionately.

Bill Bratton:

You're dealing with people.

Bill Bratton:

And you have to police consistently.

Bill Bratton:

You can't police differently in a Black neighborhood than a

Bill Bratton:

white neighborhood in the sense of, um, uh, how you go about it,

Bill Bratton:

You say, like a doctor, to, uh, uh, not, uh, uh,

Bill Bratton:

use more medicine than necessary.

Bill Bratton:

Police not to use more force.

Bill Bratton:

But no, that statistic you cited is something that should be cited

Bill Bratton:

more frequently, but is not, and oftentimes the loudest voice gets

Bill Bratton:

the attention, and so many of the loudest voices come from that,

Bill Bratton:

uh, uh, minority community that does feel oppressed by the police.

Dennis Collins:

Interesting.

Craig Floyd:

And let's fast-forward to, uh, 2020,

Craig Floyd:

all right, when George Floyd died, the defund and defame the

Craig Floyd:

police movement was launched.

Craig Floyd:

Um, we seem to have come full circle.

Craig Floyd:

We, we went from dramatic declines in crime, uh, in the

Craig Floyd:

late '90s as a result of, uh, broken windows, and what you

Craig Floyd:

did in New York City was, uh, remarkable to say the least.

Craig Floyd:

Um, and, and all of a sudden in 2020 with the defund movement,

Craig Floyd:

everybody seemed to go the opposite way, all right?

Craig Floyd:

Crime, some even serious, were not getting prosecuted.

Craig Floyd:

Um, and everybody was targeting police with, uh, anti-police

Craig Floyd:

rhetoric and, and literal attacks against law enforcement.

Craig Floyd:

Um, uh, w- what happened?

Craig Floyd:

I mean, how, how can we go so crazy from the success of the

Craig Floyd:

broken windows philosophy, um, and you can't deny the, the data

Craig Floyd:

you just cited, uh, to 2020 where all of a sudden, uh, criminals

Craig Floyd:

could, you know, have carte blanche in their communities and

Craig Floyd:

prey on, uh, the innocent, uh, with little or no consequences?

Craig Floyd:

Uh, please comment on the dangers of the defund movement

Craig Floyd:

and the disaster it caused

Bill Bratton:

The d- defund movement was one of the

Bill Bratton:

stupidest movements that was ever precipitated and inflicted

Bill Bratton:

upon American policing.

Bill Bratton:

It effectively, the death of George Floyd, which was the

Bill Bratton:

catalyst, uh, the behavior of that officer and his misguided

Bill Bratton:

supervision of the other four or five officers he got jammed up

Bill Bratton:

with him- with him, set American policing in terms of the progress

Bill Bratton:

we had made since the Rodney King event in the 1990s, it set

Bill Bratton:

us back 20 years in terms of the whole progress we had made

Bill Bratton:

with community policing, uh, the 100,000 more cops in the

Bill Bratton:

'90s, the crime turnaround, and that coupled with some of the,

Bill Bratton:

uh, uh, lingering tensions from Ferguson a few years before.

Bill Bratton:

Uh, and also just the change in the population.

Bill Bratton:

When you look at the sheer number of young people, particularly

Bill Bratton:

young white people who got involved in the post-George

Bill Bratton:

Floyd demonstrations, which were much more negative than a

Bill Bratton:

lot of people fully appreciate.

Bill Bratton:

In my city, New York City, they were very problematic,

Bill Bratton:

but that was kind of glossed over, uh, in many respects

Bill Bratton:

even by the media about how significant in Los Angeles the

Bill Bratton:

violence, the damage was, uh, the assaults upon the police.

Bill Bratton:

And it set us back.

Bill Bratton:

The, the… I often talk about the expression cops count,

Bill Bratton:

police matter, how the, the individual actions of one cop

Bill Bratton:

can change the whole profession, and that's the case with

Bill Bratton:

the George Floyd instance.

Bill Bratton:

Right.

Bill Bratton:

And the idea of police matter, the collective actions of police

Bill Bratton:

can change the relationship with the larger community.

Bill Bratton:

And so coming out of George Floyd, it was a phenomenal flip-flop.

Bill Bratton:

I couldn't… When I looked at those crowds, I'm saying,

Bill Bratton:

"What has the police done that has gotten all these

Bill Bratton:

young white kids so angry, uh, that they're out there

Bill Bratton:

demonstrating against the police?

Bill Bratton:

What, what, what's that all about?" And part of that is

Bill Bratton:

the influence of social media, uh, in terms of some of the

Bill Bratton:

educational processes that are underway in some of, uh, elite

Bill Bratton:

colleges, for example. In any event, uh, defund the police

Bill Bratton:

movement because it was so stupid, you see even now in 2026 where

Bill Bratton:

some of the people who were the staunchest advocates, creators

Bill Bratton:

of it, uh, AOC, the congresswoman from New York, uh, re- recently

Bill Bratton:

they're kind of retreating from it as they go forward into

Bill Bratton:

the election cycle of 2026.

Bill Bratton:

There's a recognition that, uh, uh, it, it wasn't such

Bill Bratton:

a good idea because what has the impact been on policing?

Bill Bratton:

A huge reduction in cop numbers in the country.

Bill Bratton:

Cops who left early, who didn't want to be- Yeah … in policing

Bill Bratton:

because of all the pressures and tension and disrespect, as

Bill Bratton:

well as the inability to recruit from generations X, Y, and Z.

Bill Bratton:

'Cause unlike the image of policing in the '50s and '60s that

Bill Bratton:

I talked about earlier of Dragnet, One Adam-12, we now, uh, we now

Bill Bratton:

have the image that was presented by the George Floyd murder and the

Bill Bratton:

Defund the Police movement so that this younger generation didn't

Bill Bratton:

grow up like I did with this sense of police as guardians, but

Bill Bratton:

rather saw police as oppressors, so they didn't wanna be, they

Bill Bratton:

didn't wanna be oppressors.

Paul Boomer:

You've been listening to Commissioner Bill Bratton

Paul Boomer:

on Heroes Behind the Badge.

Paul Boomer:

In part two, the three words he calls the highest compliment

Paul Boomer:

of 50 years in policing, higher than any medal he was given,

Paul Boomer:

and a night in 1994 that has stayed with him ever since.

Paul Boomer:

That's part two.

Paul Boomer:

Subscribe so you don't miss it.

All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Heroes Behind the Badge

About the Podcast

Heroes Behind the Badge
We tell REAL stories about REAL cops.  And we expose the fake news about police and give you the REAL truth.
From the front lines to the final call, Heroes Behind the Badge brings you the untold stories of America's law enforcement community. Led by Craig Floyd, who spent 34 years working alongside police officers across the nation, alongside veteran facilitator Dennis Collins and law enforcement expert Bill Erfurth, this podcast cuts through misconceptions to reveal the true nature of modern policing.

Our dynamic trio brings unique perspectives to each episode: Craig shares deep insights from his decades of experience and relationships within law enforcement, Dennis guides conversations with meticulous research and natural flow, and Bill adds engaging commentary that makes complex law enforcement topics accessible to all listeners.

Each episode features in-depth conversations with law enforcement professionals, sharing their firsthand experiences, challenges, and triumphs. Drawing from extensive research and real-world experience, we explore the realities faced by the over 800,000 officers who serve and protect our communities every day.

From dramatic accounts of crisis response to quiet moments of everyday heroism, our show illuminates the human stories behind the badge. We dive deep into the statistics, policies, and practices that shape modern law enforcement, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of what it truly means to serve in law enforcement today.

Whether you're a law enforcement professional, a concerned citizen, or someone seeking to understand the complexities of modern policing, Heroes Behind the Badge provides the context, insights, and authentic perspectives you won't find anywhere else. Join us weekly as we honor those who dedicate their lives to keeping our communities safe, one story at a time.

Presented by Citizens Behind the Badge, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting and advocating for law enforcement professionals across the United States. Join over 126,000 Americans who have already signed our Declaration of Support for law enforcement at behindbadge.org.