Episode 29

full
Published on:

4th Nov 2025

The Weight We Carry Breaking the Silence on Police Suicide

Every year, more law enforcement officers die by suicide than from all line-of-duty causes combined.

In this powerful first part of a two-part conversation, Heroes Behind the Badge host Dennis Collins sits down with David Berez, Dave Howe, Bill Erfurth, and Craig Floyd to confront the silent epidemic of stress, trauma, and loss inside police culture.

They discuss why suicide remains the most painful taboo in law enforcement, what it means to carry invisible weight, and how small acts of connection and leadership can save lives.

This episode is not about statistics—it’s about the people behind them.

Guests:

  • David Berez (author, retired police lieutenant)
  • Dave Howe (U.S. Army Lt. Colonel, Comfort, Peace & Freedom Foundation)
  • Bill Erfurth (retired Miami-Dade detective, filmmaker)
  • Craig Floyd (Citizens Behind the Badge)

Topics include:

  • The true scope of suicide in law enforcement
  • How silence and stigma cost lives
  • Why awareness isn’t enough
  • The first steps toward real cultural change

Presented by: CitizensBehindTheBadge.org

Podcast Series: Heroes Behind the Badge


Timestamps:

  • 00:00 – Opening Story: The Final Call
  • 03:30 – The Hidden Numbers No One Mentions
  • 07:00 – Why This Conversation Matters
  • 14:40 – A Plan for a Joyful Life
  • 17:20 – Gratitude and the Grass Metaphor
  • 20:15 – From Trauma to Purpose


#HeroesBehindTheBadge #PoliceMentalHealth #LawEnforcement #OfficerWellness #FirstResponder #PoliceSuicideAwareness #BehindTheBadge #MentalHealthMatters #ThinBlueLine #FirstResponderSupport

Transcript
Dennis Collins:

I came across something that really hit me this

Dennis Collins:

morning and I thought it might be kind of a good frame for this episode.

Dennis Collins:

This is a special episode of Heroes Behind the Badge, and here's the

Dennis Collins:

story that I came across this morning that kind of got to me.

Dennis Collins:

It's 2:00 AM a patrol car rolls quietly through the dark city streets.

Dennis Collins:

The officer answers a dispatch for what should be the last call of

Dennis Collins:

his shift, a routine end to another routine night serving the community.

Dennis Collins:

And you know that community may never, ever know his or her name.

Dennis Collins:

He jokes with a coworker, files his last report.

Dennis Collins:

He grabs his coffee, he masks the exhaustion and the pain behind

Dennis Collins:

a practiced smile to his team.

Dennis Collins:

He seems steady, maybe even invincible, but when the locker closes and the

Dennis Collins:

badge comes off, the weight of unspoken burdens finally settles in by sunrise.

Dennis Collins:

Another family is changed forever, blindsided by a tragedy that no

Dennis Collins:

one saw coming, and the thin blue line grows thinner and thinner in

Dennis Collins:

a way the headlines rarely mention.

Dennis Collins:

Every year, this scenario is heartbreakingly real for more law

Dennis Collins:

enforcement families than those touched by the line-of-duty deaths.

Dennis Collins:

That

Dennis Collins:

struck me, guys.

Dennis Collins:

That struck me — and today is a special episode of Heroes Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

We have not one, but two subject matter expert guests.

Dennis Collins:

I know usually here we talk about the badge, we talk about the

Dennis Collins:

uniform, we talk about our heroes.

Dennis Collins:

But you know what?

Dennis Collins:

We never forget our heroes.

Dennis Collins:

But now imagine those silent battles.

Dennis Collins:

Are happening right now behind closed doors.

Dennis Collins:

The sirens are off.

Dennis Collins:

The station grows quiet every single year.

Dennis Collins:

Believe this or not, I found it hard to believe I did the homework on this.

Dennis Collins:

More law enforcement officers die by suicide than from every other

Dennis Collins:

line-of-duty incident combined.

Dennis Collins:

Gunfire, car crashes, assaults.

Dennis Collins:

This isn't just a number, guys.

Dennis Collins:

It's a cascade.

Dennis Collins:

A cascade of heartbreak for families, partners blindsided, entire departments

Dennis Collins:

grieving a loss they never saw coming.

Dennis Collins:

Yeah, this is a hard topic to talk about.

Dennis Collins:

In fact, sometimes, you know, I've never been a sworn law enforcement

Dennis Collins:

officer, but I have been around law enforcement my whole life.

Dennis Collins:

I have a daughter who is a lieutenant in law enforcement and, I know

Dennis Collins:

this is a hard topic to talk about.

Dennis Collins:

In fact, it's been a taboo topic.

Dennis Collins:

A taboo topic for many, many years.

Dennis Collins:

But you know what?

Dennis Collins:

It can't be a taboo topic anymore.

Dennis Collins:

Okay?

Dennis Collins:

184 officers take their lives on average every year, which is more

Dennis Collins:

than all the officers call the, killed in line-of-duty fatalities.

Dennis Collins:

So, uh, not to, I, I, I want to set the tone and the reason we're doing

Dennis Collins:

this show, one of the key core beliefs.

Dennis Collins:

Of Citizens Behind the Badge that sponsors this podcast is that we have to

Dennis Collins:

stop being silent about something that needs to be talked about in the open.

Dennis Collins:

And we have made a decision as a board to put this issue forefront,

Dennis Collins:

to put it front and center.

Dennis Collins:

And today we are blessed with two subject matter experts on these topics today.

Dennis Collins:

Two guests instead of one.

Dennis Collins:

We haven't done that before.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, one new guest and one returning guest.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, our new guest is Dave Howe.

Dennis Collins:

He's a retired army lieutenant Colonel today.

Dennis Collins:

He's representing the comfort, peace and Freedom Foundation supporting

Dennis Collins:

America's heroes and beside.

Dennis Collins:

Dave Howe, we have our own David Berez.

Dennis Collins:

David is a returning guest, a valued member of our law enforcement advisory

Dennis Collins:

council for Citizens Behind the Badge.

Dennis Collins:

He is the author of the book, A Resilient Life, A Cops

Dennis Collins:

Journey, and Pursuit of Purpose.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, we talked about David.

Dennis Collins:

We had David as a guest months ago.

Dennis Collins:

If you haven't got the book yet.

Dennis Collins:

Get it.

Dennis Collins:

Okay.

Dennis Collins:

I got multiple copies.

Dennis Collins:

I passed them to all my law enforcement friends here in the Florida area.

Dennis Collins:

It is a great read.

Dennis Collins:

It is a must read for the times that we're in right now.

Dennis Collins:

It is a must read.

Dennis Collins:

David also is a frequent op-ed contributor to our Citizens Behind

Dennis Collins:

the Badge, uh, blogs and posts.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, I am delighted to have the David's.

Dennis Collins:

Here today.

Dennis Collins:

and there, uh, David, of course, David Berez is a subject matter

Dennis Collins:

expert in positive psychology.

Dennis Collins:

Uh, I don't wanna take any of their thunder because they are the experts

Dennis Collins:

and we're just gonna be asking, hopefully some intelligent questions.

Dennis Collins:

But, let me start with Dave Howe.

Dennis Collins:

I mean, we had a great discussion off, uh, line yesterday, Dave, and

Dennis Collins:

I ask you point blank, I think, why do we need to talk about this?

Dennis Collins:

This is not a comfortable subject.

Dennis Collins:

It's not a subject that maybe we'd like to be talking about, but why the hell do

Dennis Collins:

we need to be talking about this, Dave?

Dave Howe:

your description of that horrible night and how that impacted

Dave Howe:

the family, is, is certainly a great place to start the conversation

Dave Howe:

and to answer your question.

Dave Howe:

Clearly, uh, the program that I'm going to, uh, introduce, and by the way, thank

Dave Howe:

you for giving me this opportunity to present this new tool that's available

Dave Howe:

to the law enforcement community to not just address the suicide issue

Dave Howe:

that you described in the opening, but it's actually something that all

Dave Howe:

people, not just in law enforcement can benefit from, and that is to create a

Dave Howe:

written plan, to have a joyful life.

Dave Howe:

And so.

Dave Howe:

That kind of program, that is a new tool to put in our toolbox to help deal with

Dave Howe:

the stresses of the job, which then is a contributing factor to the suicide, sure.

Dave Howe:

Uh, crisis that's facing law enforcement today.

Dave Howe:

And it, unfortunately, it's getting worse.

Dave Howe:

So this is a great, forum to share, a way to help bend that horrible statistic

Dave Howe:

into a favorable, uh, direction.

Dennis Collins:

Absolutely.

Dennis Collins:

David Berez.

Dennis Collins:

I know, you are, the book documents how you feel about this whole topic.

Dennis Collins:

You documented it well on our podcast.

Dennis Collins:

I think I got the number right.

Dennis Collins:

Law enforcement, officers are 54% more likely to commit suicide

Dennis Collins:

than the average population.

Dennis Collins:

Did I get that right?

David Berez:

That is absolutely correct, and I think when we have

David Berez:

these conversations, it's really important to set the stage and set the

David Berez:

tone for, why this is so important.

David Berez:

And so, yes, you hit on a lot of those numbers already.

David Berez:

In, you're in, you're opening your intro.

David Berez:

And again, thank you for having me back.

David Berez:

Thank you for letting me be part of this community, uh, the community

David Berez:

that you guys have built, uh, for.

David Berez:

Bringing, light on the issues in law enforcement, specifically, this one

David Berez:

that means so much to me, uh, of, uh, self-harm and self-destructive

David Berez:

behaviors and ultimately suicide.

David Berez:

So I'm grateful to share that platform with you.

David Berez:

But yeah, three times, 3.8 times more likely to die by suicide

David Berez:

than killed in the line-of-duty.

David Berez:

You mentioned that.

David Berez:

Wow, 54% more likely to die by suicide than the general public.

David Berez:

These numbers are are staggering.

David Berez:

Uh, one thing that's been interesting too, actually two points have been

David Berez:

interesting for me of recent is police.

David Berez:

O the average person lives in about 85 years, is what the statistics say.

David Berez:

30 years beyond the age of 50 is actually have the scientists break that down.

David Berez:

Police officers are 7.8 years expected lifespan beyond the age of 50.

David Berez:

Huh?

David Berez:

So those of us here have surpassed those odds, which is awesome.

David Berez:

I'm not quite there yet.

David Berez:

Uh, I've got seven.

David Berez:

Well, we're trying, I've got 7.2 years to go according to those numbers.

David Berez:

But the, um, but yeah, it, it's, incredible to think the amount of stress

David Berez:

that this job puts on our bodies and our minds, that these are the numbers.

David Berez:

With programs like that, that Dave is gonna be talking about and programs

David Berez:

that I've been involved with and, and I have on my own, there is mitigating

David Berez:

factors that can extend that lifespan, that can take us out of that rut,

David Berez:

that can do all of these things.

David Berez:

So yeah, let's, push these ideas forward.

Dennis Collins:

Absolutely.

Dennis Collins:

I know, uh, the Daves have had a chance to talk, uh, before this podcast, right?

Dennis Collins:

The two of you.

Dennis Collins:

And, uh, I'd love to hear, and I, I know, uh, my colleagues Bill Erfurth.

Dennis Collins:

Morning, sir. And Craig Floyd, our fearless leader, our

Dennis Collins:

president, of Citizens Behind the Badge, founder and president.

Dennis Collins:

I know they're gonna have a lot of questions.

Dennis Collins:

I would love to hear myself what you guys talked about when you spoke

Dennis Collins:

and what the synergies are that you see between what Dave Howe is

Dennis Collins:

doing and what Dave Berez is doing.

Dennis Collins:

Okay, let me, uh, let me throw it to our, our fearless leader, Craig Floyd

Dennis Collins:

and, uh, uh, guide us from here, sir.

Craig Floyd:

Well, my first question really is, uh, to David Berez, and that

Craig Floyd:

is, 40 years ago, uh, when I started the National Law Enforcement Officers

Craig Floyd:

Memorial Fund, the only discussion anybody was having regarding police

Craig Floyd:

suicide was our criteria for when a name goes on the National Memorial.

Craig Floyd:

And it very clearly stated as the Department of Justice had

Craig Floyd:

already clearly established that.

Craig Floyd:

Officers who died by suicide would not be eligible, uh, to

Craig Floyd:

have their names on the memorial.

Craig Floyd:

Their families would not get death benefits from the federal government as

Craig Floyd:

those that die in the line-of-duty would.

Craig Floyd:

Today, it seems like every organization, everywhere you go, people are

Craig Floyd:

talking about how we can bolster the mental health of officers.

Craig Floyd:

and I'm, I'm incredibly proud and pleased that we've been a part of that discussion

Craig Floyd:

and that we've gotten to this point.

Craig Floyd:

But I'd like you to just maybe, uh, briefly talk about what it was like when

Craig Floyd:

you entered your law enforcement career.

Craig Floyd:

And what it's like today.

Craig Floyd:

I mean, you're a master resiliency trainer.

Craig Floyd:

you, you've got all these great ideas about how officers can, uh,

Craig Floyd:

deal with the stress of the job.

Craig Floyd:

But you wrote in your book very courageously by the way

Craig Floyd:

that you had suicidal thoughts, uh, at the end of your career.

Craig Floyd:

And I'm just, uh, interested in, the evolution, uh, the beginning and what

Craig Floyd:

it's like today as we deal with the issue of mental health and police suicide.

David Berez:

So I think, so I started in 1999, my career.

David Berez:

And back then, just like you mentioned, mental health and suicide was not even

David Berez:

part of the conversation, not in a good or bad way, it just wasn't there at all.

David Berez:

so the, i, if you were struggling, if you were having a bad day, the

David Berez:

response was tighten your bootstraps, pull your belt up a little bit, uh,

David Berez:

straighten up your uniform, keep moving forward, you'll be fine.

David Berez:

I don't know that we had the right data and the right science

David Berez:

back then to understand what was actually happening in our brains.

David Berez:

So in the year 2000, which is the year that I, at, the year after I started

David Berez:

in policing, Dr. Marty Seligman started the idea of positive psychology.

David Berez:

So as that science has moved forward in the last 25 years,

David Berez:

or almost 26 years, the.

David Berez:

Understanding of how our brains change after its exposure to

David Berez:

trauma has really been realized.

David Berez:

And I don't know that we knew that before and we're not talking about that long ago.

David Berez:

This science is not that old.

David Berez:

So today, now understanding that, I think we're looking at

David Berez:

it differently and, and for good reason and with good a good results.

David Berez:

We've lowered a lot of those rates over the years.

David Berez:

We're lowering the barriers to getting the support and the help,

David Berez:

which by the way is much stronger of an issue than stigma itself.

David Berez:

Stigma used to be the problem.

David Berez:

Stigma used to be the issue.

David Berez:

Years ago if you asked for help, they just took your bag and gun and you were gone.

David Berez:

But now we're not seeing stigma.

David Berez:

It's still there, but it's not as much of the problem.

David Berez:

The access to the care is the problem.

David Berez:

And we're finding ways to, to break down those barriers as well.

David Berez:

So I, I think now that we're talking about it, now that it's more prominent

David Berez:

and we have the tools to address it, it's becoming more acceptable

David Berez:

because we can do something about it.

David Berez:

And you're not just crazy.

David Berez:

So you have a medical problem.

David Berez:

Same thing if you break your leg.

David Berez:

If you break your leg on the job, we're not throwing you to the wolves

David Berez:

and telling you to take a hike.

David Berez:

can't do that with a broken leg anyway.

David Berez:

But the um.

David Berez:

If we have a mental problem or an emotional problem as a result

David Berez:

of the job, it's an injury.

David Berez:

That's why we've gone from post-traumatic stress disorder

David Berez:

to post-traumatic stress injury.

David Berez:

'cause that's exactly what it is.

David Berez:

And I, at some point, if you want me to, you can get deeper into the neuroscience

David Berez:

of why we've made that change.

David Berez:

But the change is legitimate and I think we need to address it as an injury and

David Berez:

not as a disorder, 'cause it can be fixed.

Craig Floyd:

And Dave Howe.

Craig Floyd:

Okay, so David Berez is starting his police career, and he's got

Craig Floyd:

a lot of stress ahead of him.

Craig Floyd:

Obviously he is dealt with a lot of traumatic events.

Craig Floyd:

I think the, number is what roughly 400 to 600 traumatic events are experienced

Craig Floyd:

by a police officer in their career, the average citizen, maybe two or three

Craig Floyd:

traumatic events in their lifetime.

Craig Floyd:

So right away we see that the stress of the job is tremendous.

Craig Floyd:

So Dave Howe, tell me about this life plan that you'd like to see officers engage in.

Craig Floyd:

What, what are the components and what would you like officers to do

Craig Floyd:

at the beginning, middle, and end of their careers to better adjust to that

Craig Floyd:

stress and those traumatic events?

Dave Howe:

Yeah, the, the life planning program is really for everybody.

Dave Howe:

It's not just for law enforcement or in my case, uh, I got into this to try and bring

Dave Howe:

it to the military community that is also suffering from serious, uh, mental health

Dave Howe:

and, and, uh, horrible suicide stats.

Dave Howe:

In fact, 22 members of the military community kill themselves every day.

Dave Howe:

So that's over 8,000 a year and 200,000 since the War on Terror began.

Dave Howe:

So,

Dave Howe:

The program was never designed to be a mental health program or to, you know,

Dave Howe:

reverse the, terrible trend in suicides.

Dave Howe:

That just happens to be another way that the program can be very beneficial.

Dave Howe:

So, directly to your question, if you get people on a joyful path through

Dave Howe:

life early, well then they're never gonna come to the fork in the road.

Dave Howe:

That puts them into danger that David has.

Dave Howe:

Uh, so, uh.

Dave Howe:

detailed, uh, in his book, for example.

Dave Howe:

So, by having a program that focuses on just how are you gonna optimize your

Dave Howe:

life, and it's a very simple program in that it starts with, you envision

Dave Howe:

what that future is gonna look like.

Dave Howe:

And I have people begin by looking at the end of their lives and having them

Dave Howe:

document, what do you wanna be known for?

Dave Howe:

What do you want your obituary to say?

Dave Howe:

What do you want your friends and family at your funeral to say?

Dave Howe:

And then you start backward planning from the things that you wanna

Dave Howe:

achieve in your life to make sure that you accomplish those things

Dave Howe:

in the course of your journey.

Dave Howe:

And by putting the negative stressors that you've, you've so, brilliantly,

Dave Howe:

described today, you use that negative energy, flip it into positive energy.

Dave Howe:

Put that energy into creating and sticking with and achieving the goals of the plan,

Dave Howe:

designed to get you to having a absolutely wonderful, uh, experience throughout

Dave Howe:

your entire, uh, time on this earth.

Craig Floyd:

David, that, that ties in nicely and is very consistent

Craig Floyd:

with what you've always said on this podcast and, and privately.

Craig Floyd:

And that is instead of focusing on all the, the negative, uh, aspects

Craig Floyd:

of your life, uh, whether it be stressful, uh, day on the job as a

Craig Floyd:

police officer, or whatever it might be, focus on what you're grateful for.

Craig Floyd:

Gratitude is such an important part of the resiliency program that, that you espouse.

Craig Floyd:

touch on that a little bit if you would.

David Berez:

Yeah, absolutely.

David Berez:

So looking through the lens of positive psychology, we need, we, can build

David Berez:

our lives from a strengths-based perspective on what is good, how do we

David Berez:

build from a solid foundation beyond just ameliorating our problems from a

David Berez:

psychological perspective, which is I think what Dave is talking about as well.

David Berez:

We don't just need to focus on what our problems are and how do we solve those?

David Berez:

Because when we solve them, what do we do?

David Berez:

So using things like gratitude and seeing the good parts of our

David Berez:

lives, we can build on those.

David Berez:

That foundation that, you know, Barbara, Dr. Barbara Frederickson talks

David Berez:

about her broaden and build model.

David Berez:

If we build a solid foundation, a wide solid foundation, we can

David Berez:

build up from that and use our strengths to keep moving forward.

David Berez:

I often like to describe it as growing grass.

David Berez:

To be honest with you.

David Berez:

We can pull weeds all day long, but we're just leaving space

David Berez:

for we for more weeds to grow.

David Berez:

It doesn't do anything for the grass when we pull our weeds, but if we

David Berez:

fertilize and strengthen our grass, the weeds themselves will naturally die out.

David Berez:

Those weeds are a metaphor for our problems and the things

David Berez:

that are ill being in our lives.

David Berez:

So if we strengthen and grow that grass.

David Berez:

We don't get more weeds, we get more grass and strong grass.

David Berez:

So gratitude is certainly one of those ways that we can do that.

David Berez:

When we focus on the things that are good for us, we'll see more.

David Berez:

Good.

David Berez:

I equate that often to like if you're driving down the highway, when was

David Berez:

the last time you saw a purple truck?

David Berez:

They don't really, there's not a lot of them out there.

David Berez:

But if you think to yourself for the next 30 seconds about purple trucks,

David Berez:

guess what you're gonna see the next time you drive down the highway.

David Berez:

A purple truck and gratitude is the same thing.

David Berez:

If we focus on all the good things in our lives and not just the good

David Berez:

things that people are doing for us and our contributions to others,

David Berez:

the more we give to others, the better we feel about ourselves, the

David Berez:

more good we're going to do, the more good we're gonna feel and see.

David Berez:

So gratitude is a great way to, to build those strengths.

Dennis Collins:

Could I interject and, and ask Biller for us to get involved here?

Dennis Collins:

Uh, those of you who are frequent, flyers on our podcast, you know that Bill Erfurth

Dennis Collins:

is a 26 year veteran of the Miami-Dade Police Department now Sheriff's office,

Dennis Collins:

but it was police department back then.

Dennis Collins:

He retired as a lieutenant, highly decorated and ran one of the,

Dennis Collins:

uh, top units, the TNT Unit for years inside of, uh, Miami-Dade.

Dennis Collins:

I want you to reflect Billy Boy on what.

Dennis Collins:

The David's both said, okay, that Dave Howe is talking about

Dennis Collins:

starting when you begin as a cop on this positive life thing.

Dennis Collins:

And of course we all know David Ez, positive psychology.

Dennis Collins:

We know what he's all about.

Dennis Collins:

What would you be thinking as a new 21-year-old Metro dad cop?

Dennis Collins:

If that was part of the curriculum?

Bill Erfurth:

yeah, I, I think what you guys are talking about,

Bill Erfurth:

and first and foremost is, is how is this going to be implemented?

Bill Erfurth:

Because what goes on, on the job day in and day out, it's.

Bill Erfurth:

Pretty difficult to change what you are going to see and what

Bill Erfurth:

you're going to experience.

Bill Erfurth:

You hear a lot of cops say, you know, after 25, after 30 years, I'll never be

Bill Erfurth:

able to unsee the mayhem that I've seen.

Bill Erfurth:

And you know, you carry that.

Bill Erfurth:

Forever.

Bill Erfurth:

I, can honestly say, so you're asking me at 21 years old?

Bill Erfurth:

I can remember when I was 21 and 22 years old, and I can vividly see it right now of

Bill Erfurth:

this tiny little 6-year-old girl that was.

Bill Erfurth:

Hit by a a, a hit and run driver.

Bill Erfurth:

Her arms and her legs were twisted and contorted in every quick,

Bill Erfurth:

crazy way that you could see.

Bill Erfurth:

She's laying on her back in the middle of the street, her big brown eyes, wide open.

Bill Erfurth:

Never blinked.

Bill Erfurth:

Never blinked once as I was kneeling over her.

Bill Erfurth:

I can still see that today and I'm sitting there as a young cop thinking.

Bill Erfurth:

Holy shit, what do I do for this kid?

Bill Erfurth:

I don't know what the fuck I'm doing here.

Bill Erfurth:

You know?

Bill Erfurth:

And I'm getting on the radio like several times.

Bill Erfurth:

I'm getting on the radio.

Bill Erfurth:

What's the ETA on rescue?

Bill Erfurth:

What's the ETA on rescue?

Bill Erfurth:

Because you're not trained for that.

Bill Erfurth:

I mean, yeah, you can do a little simple first aid and stuff, but you

Bill Erfurth:

know, I still see that today and that was how many years ago now?

Bill Erfurth:

Does that haunt me?

Bill Erfurth:

No, not, not really have I ever lost any sleep.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, you hear cops talk about, you know, they, they, they

Bill Erfurth:

have insomnia, they can't sleep.

Bill Erfurth:

They have nightmares.

Bill Erfurth:

I don't know.

Bill Erfurth:

I never had that, honestly.

Bill Erfurth:

You know why that is?

Bill Erfurth:

Perhaps it's your upbringing.

Bill Erfurth:

It's the way that you're raised.

Bill Erfurth:

But, you know, we'll get into this more of this imple implement

Bill Erfurth:

implementation of, of these programs with the, with both Dave's here.

Dennis Collins:

but what if, but you know, what if those programs had been available

Dennis Collins:

to you at 21, the program that Dave Howe has and the program that Dave Breez had,

Dennis Collins:

how would you have responded to that?

Dennis Collins:

Would you have said, are you, this is all fluffy, this is all bs.

Dennis Collins:

I don't need this.

Dennis Collins:

I, I don't, I'm just asking your, your opinion.

Bill Erfurth:

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, my opinion and honestly, yeah, you'd be like.

Bill Erfurth:

Screw that, you know, because back then though, I think that, like what David

Bill Erfurth:

would say, and you know, the mentality has changed now and, and it's not

Bill Erfurth:

quite as taboo, but it's also, you've gotta understand the police culture.

Bill Erfurth:

The police culture, just like the military culture where, where Dave comes, you know,

Bill Erfurth:

Dave was a colonel, he was, you know, involved with those folks all the time.

Bill Erfurth:

It's a very macho thing and no one wants to kind of.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, show they're less than macho side because it's, it's almost like

Bill Erfurth:

you're, it's perceived as a weakness.

Bill Erfurth:

I can tell you, you know, it's interesting when, you know, we're

Bill Erfurth:

in the police academy and, and you gotta go to the morgue, so

Bill Erfurth:

everybody's gotta go to the morgue.

Bill Erfurth:

And, and, and in some respects it's probably a good thing because

Bill Erfurth:

it did weed out some people.

Bill Erfurth:

But you know, you go to the morgue.

Bill Erfurth:

You walk in the place, it wreaks like hell.

Bill Erfurth:

There's dead people everywhere.

Bill Erfurth:

It's, like worse than Halloween.

Dennis Collins:

There

Bill Erfurth:

are, yeah.

Bill Erfurth:

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth:

And so you walk in this place and, of course the, uh, the medical examiner.

Bill Erfurth:

Looks forward to this day because he wants to see how many people he

Bill Erfurth:

can cause to pass out, you know?

Bill Erfurth:

And so now they're sawing the head open and cracking the chest open and they're,

Bill Erfurth:

and they, and they want you to hand you, uh, you know, body organs to hold

Bill Erfurth:

in your hands and all this crazy shit.

Bill Erfurth:

And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking.

Bill Erfurth:

This is horrendous.

Bill Erfurth:

But you know, like several people fell to the sides and passed out and other people

Bill Erfurth:

were nauseous and some people actually quit the academy after that because

Bill Erfurth:

they were like, I can't deal with this.

Bill Erfurth:

Wow.

Bill Erfurth:

So maybe that's a good thing because you weeded some of those people out because

Bill Erfurth:

lemme tell you something, you know, you, you kind of hinted on it earlier about how

Bill Erfurth:

all these traumatic incidents, you know, I have this conversation once in a while,

Bill Erfurth:

and your average person, maybe you see.

Bill Erfurth:

11 dead people your entire life, right?

Bill Erfurth:

And those 11 dead people, they got makeup on and their lips

Bill Erfurth:

are so closed and they're in the coffin laying there at a wake.

Bill Erfurth:

Uh, maybe you've seen a traffic accident or a violent crime, perhaps,

Bill Erfurth:

you know, you're talking 11 people.

Bill Erfurth:

Give or take in your entire life.

Bill Erfurth:

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth:

you know, a big city cop in an urban area where there's a lot more crime.

Bill Erfurth:

I'd see 20 dead people in a month,

Craig Floyd:

right?

Craig Floyd:

So

Bill Erfurth:

20 dead people in a month, times 27.

Bill Erfurth:

I mean, do the math.

Bill Erfurth:

So there's a lot crazy stuff.

Bill Erfurth:

I'll just say this and then we'll move on.

Bill Erfurth:

I think that I was never affected.

Bill Erfurth:

Like a number of people because I had not only good upbringing as a kid, so

Bill Erfurth:

I was solid in, in my, my thinking, but also because I was into sports.

Bill Erfurth:

Ah, so the police job wasn't my world.

Bill Erfurth:

It wasn't my number one be all.

Bill Erfurth:

Interesting end all kind of thing, because I can tell you there's a lot of people,

Bill Erfurth:

that's their whole life, their whole identity, that's all they care about.

Bill Erfurth:

That's all that they associate with.

Bill Erfurth:

They marry other cops.

Bill Erfurth:

They never get away from the lunacy.

Bill Erfurth:

And I was, I had a lot of outside interests.

Bill Erfurth:

I had media stuff going on.

Bill Erfurth:

I had, I had sports going on.

Bill Erfurth:

I had a lot of different things that.

Bill Erfurth:

Took me away from the daily grind of death, destruction, and despair, which

Bill Erfurth:

is what that job brings you every day.

Craig Floyd:

Hey Dave.

Craig Floyd:

How, okay, so Bill has just described how he's adjusted to his.

Craig Floyd:

Police career and how he wasn't affected.

Craig Floyd:

He is not, he never had suicidal thoughts.

Craig Floyd:

He did.

Craig Floyd:

He's not a heavy drinker.

Craig Floyd:

I've been with him many times.

Craig Floyd:

I've about, I out drink him every time.

Craig Floyd:

And bottom line is he seemed so well adjusted.

Craig Floyd:

Now, he didn't have a written life plan as you're suggesting

Craig Floyd:

maybe officers should do.

Craig Floyd:

But you had an interesting take on, on Bill's situation when

Craig Floyd:

we had a private discussion.

Craig Floyd:

I'd like you to share.

Craig Floyd:

Why you thank Bill, even though he didn't have a written life plan, maybe

Craig Floyd:

he still, um, uh, dealt with some of the same principles of what you're proposing.

Dave Howe:

full disclosure, whatever the relationship is, bill is the

Dave Howe:

brother of my brother-in-law.

Dave Howe:

there's a family, connection there and that's how I got to know.

Dave Howe:

We haven't figured out what that

Craig Floyd:

is.

Dave Howe:

Yes, that's a hard, what the name of that is.

Dave Howe:

And as a result, you know, and, and my wife is a retired deputy chief

Dave Howe:

of investigations for the DuPage County State's Attorney's Office.

Dave Howe:

so I've been exposed to the law enforcement community for a long

Dave Howe:

period of time, and obviously getting to know someone, with bill's resume,

Dave Howe:

He really was at the tip of the tip of the spear for the law enforcement community.

Dave Howe:

So his stories are just so rich, so authentic, um, and so compelling.

Dave Howe:

you know, that he's a really remarkable guy.

Dave Howe:

But the thing I really want to emphasize about, what Bill just said, um, and

Dave Howe:

hopefully it'll answer your question, if not, you know, fill in the blanks, but,

Dave Howe:

Bill describes exactly why the program that I'm presenting to everyone

Dave Howe:

today is, really so important is he had a holistic view of his life.

Dave Howe:

Mm-hmm.

Dave Howe:

It wasn't 1000% tunnel focused on his, Mel, his, police career.

Dave Howe:

He had all these outside interests, all these outside relationships.

Dave Howe:

So he had lots of places that he could sort of dissipate some of the stress,

Dave Howe:

some of that, oh my God, I can't believe what I just saw in my last shift.

Dave Howe:

He had other places to, to sort of spread that out as opposed to he was

Dave Howe:

in a very narrow group and everybody was almost one-upping each other as

Dave Howe:

to how bad of a day they had or what.

Dave Howe:

Horrific event they had just had to deal with.

Dave Howe:

That's the purpose of the program is to actually come up with a written plan

Dave Howe:

for how you're gonna have a joyful life.

Dave Howe:

Exactly Like, Lieutenant Erfurth, was able to achieve without

Dave Howe:

committing it to, to writing or anything, but he had it in his mind.

Dave Howe:

Lots of people can have successful lives.

Dave Howe:

I mean, it's not a requirement.

Dave Howe:

I mean, Bill Gates didn't have a written plan.

Dave Howe:

Steve Jobs, you know, think of any famous successful person.

Dave Howe:

If you looked into their lives, I'll be willing to bat bet their

Dave Howe:

corporate plan was very detailed.

Dave Howe:

There were parts of their life that was very well documented, written

Dave Howe:

down, followed, goal achievement, uh, was, was job number one for their day.

Dave Howe:

you don't have to do this kind of program.

Dave Howe:

But one interesting statistic is, um, studies have shown that.

Dave Howe:

Only 1% of the population in our country actually have a

Dave Howe:

written plan for their life.

Dave Howe:

Yet those people that do have a written plan are nine times more successful.

Dave Howe:

Than those that do not have a plan.

Dave Howe:

Interesting.

Dave Howe:

So you can go for forward and have a very successful like, like Bill and

Dave Howe:

many others have without a written plan.

Dave Howe:

But you can optimize and increase your odds of having a really successful journey

Dave Howe:

by doing, uh, a program similar to the one that I'm presenting to you all, uh, today.

Dave Howe:

It's very,

David Berez:

interesting.

David Berez:

I, I'd like to add one thing to that, that I think is, uh, maybe contextualize

David Berez:

that whole conversation, with what Bill said or what Dave said is to me it comes

David Berez:

down to one word and it's optimism.

David Berez:

And Bill has this natural, innate level of optimism where.

David Berez:

He, even though something bad happened to him, he turns it around

David Berez:

as how did that happen for him?

David Berez:

And it's not, he doesn't have this victimized mindset.

David Berez:

So there are so many people.

David Berez:

Negativity is twice as easy to.

David Berez:

conceptualize for the individual as, positivity.

David Berez:

So I, I think that when somebody like Bill is innately optimistic, these things don't

David Berez:

bother you as much or at all, even, and how you reframe them is super important.

David Berez:

And then the other side of that where you have the written, the concept of

David Berez:

the written life plan that Dave Howe is talking about is super important

David Berez:

because we can train optimism.

David Berez:

We don't all, we're not born as lucky as Bill to be that optimistic, generally

David Berez:

with a smile on our face all the time.

David Berez:

But we can learn it.

David Berez:

We can learn optimism through training, and I think that's what this, uh,

David Berez:

the, the plan that Dave was talking about is really, really good for, and

David Berez:

for those people that are like, bill, what that does is it, it categorizes

David Berez:

things for you so you can move forward with your innate already, you know,

David Berez:

the space you're already in naturally.

David Berez:

So I think it is good for both populations, but I think it serves

David Berez:

even better those that don't have that innate optimism that Bill has because

David Berez:

you can train yourself to be like that.

David Berez:

And if we insert this in the academies early on, as Dennis originally

David Berez:

asked, we're going to have less catastrophic outcomes on the other

David Berez:

side of your career because you're training yourself to do this over a

David Berez:

long period of time, and you can build up to that natural level of optimism

David Berez:

that Bill was already speaking to.

David Berez:

So I, so I

Bill Erfurth:

wanna jump back in and say, all right, before we really get

Bill Erfurth:

into the nitty gritty of how this can be implemented, how this becomes cultural

Bill Erfurth:

within the law enforcement culture, say.

Bill Erfurth:

One thing that I think is important is when you are a cop, I, I, I'm gonna use

Bill Erfurth:

this term, it's called being a gore whore.

Bill Erfurth:

And you know, a gore whore is basically somebody that just cannot

Bill Erfurth:

wait to go see the death and the mayhem and the dead bodies and all

Bill Erfurth:

this other kind of crazy shit, right?

Bill Erfurth:

So there got to be a point in my career, maybe it was about

Bill Erfurth:

eight years into the job.

Bill Erfurth:

Where I said, you know what, if that isn't my call, I'm not going to that.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, like, so if, if it was a dead body call, if you know,

Bill Erfurth:

and, and let me just clarify this.

Bill Erfurth:

If it was a dangerous call, you know, and you needed backups and

Bill Erfurth:

stuff, you know, everybody went.

Bill Erfurth:

But if it was a, if it was a traffic fatality.

Bill Erfurth:

I remember younger in my career, I'd drive from the other side

Bill Erfurth:

of my zone to go by the traffic fatality because I was a gore whore.

Bill Erfurth:

I wanted to see, I wanted to see how crazy this might be, And I gotta say something,

Bill Erfurth:

you know, like I talking about going to the morgue, you know, when you're a young

Bill Erfurth:

cop, at least where I worked and I, and and, and I was working the day shift.

Bill Erfurth:

I dreaded getting the dead body calls.

Bill Erfurth:

And every morning when I'd start at 7:00 AM and since I was the, the rookie

Bill Erfurth:

on this day shift squad, I would get all the fricking dead body calls.

Bill Erfurth:

And every day you would have to go, not every day, but you know what I'm saying,

Bill Erfurth:

you'd have to go to these nursing homes.

Bill Erfurth:

Hmm.

Bill Erfurth:

And you'd have to walk into the nursing home because that morning

Bill Erfurth:

the staff found another dead person.

Bill Erfurth:

Yeah.

Bill Erfurth:

And you walk in there and the place stinks like hell.

Bill Erfurth:

You walk in there, they've pissed themselves or they've shit themselves,

Bill Erfurth:

or whatever it is, it's horrendous.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, body purges when they die.

Bill Erfurth:

But you also have to inspect the body, right?

Bill Erfurth:

Because you have to make sure that there wasn't any wrongdoing.

Bill Erfurth:

And if there was something that didn't look right, then you had to call homicide.

Bill Erfurth:

If not, you just called the doctor, they signed off on it, whatever.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, I'm not gonna get into all that.

Bill Erfurth:

But again, every day or every other day, you're going to see some dead person and.

Bill Erfurth:

I don't know.

Bill Erfurth:

You know, you just can't get away from some of that stuff.

Bill Erfurth:

But at a certain point in time in my career, I decided that I was no

Bill Erfurth:

longer going to just randomly go and see some horrific crime scene or see

Bill Erfurth:

who killed their brother for the last pork chop at the dinner table and

Bill Erfurth:

all this other crazy nonsense, right.

Bill Erfurth:

And so you have to make that decision as a cop, that you have to shield yourself,

Bill Erfurth:

and you have to have some kind of smarts about yourself psychologically to say, I

Bill Erfurth:

don't need to see all that shit every day.

Paul Boomer:

What we've heard so far are the unseen costs of service,

Paul Boomer:

the moments that change a life and the silence that too often follows.

Paul Boomer:

But awareness is only the beginning in part two will turn toward the

Paul Boomer:

question every officer eventually faces.

Paul Boomer:

What comes next?

Paul Boomer:

That conversation continues in part two Beyond the Badge.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Heroes Behind the Badge

About the Podcast

Heroes Behind the Badge
We tell REAL stories about REAL cops.  And we expose the fake news about police and give you the REAL truth.
From the front lines to the final call, Heroes Behind the Badge brings you the untold stories of America's law enforcement community. Led by Craig Floyd, who spent 34 years working alongside police officers across the nation, alongside veteran facilitator Dennis Collins and law enforcement expert Bill Erfurth, this podcast cuts through misconceptions to reveal the true nature of modern policing.

Our dynamic trio brings unique perspectives to each episode: Craig shares deep insights from his decades of experience and relationships within law enforcement, Dennis guides conversations with meticulous research and natural flow, and Bill adds engaging commentary that makes complex law enforcement topics accessible to all listeners.

Each episode features in-depth conversations with law enforcement professionals, sharing their firsthand experiences, challenges, and triumphs. Drawing from extensive research and real-world experience, we explore the realities faced by the over 800,000 officers who serve and protect our communities every day.

From dramatic accounts of crisis response to quiet moments of everyday heroism, our show illuminates the human stories behind the badge. We dive deep into the statistics, policies, and practices that shape modern law enforcement, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of what it truly means to serve in law enforcement today.

Whether you're a law enforcement professional, a concerned citizen, or someone seeking to understand the complexities of modern policing, Heroes Behind the Badge provides the context, insights, and authentic perspectives you won't find anywhere else. Join us weekly as we honor those who dedicate their lives to keeping our communities safe, one story at a time.

Presented by Citizens Behind the Badge, a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting and advocating for law enforcement professionals across the United States. Join over 126,000 Americans who have already signed our Declaration of Support for law enforcement at behindbadge.org.